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Achilles

I stole fire from the lighter!

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13th January 2003

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#1 8 years ago

nope, not the 90's wrestling tag team :P

So I've been working on reducing lag for my mod, I resized all ships to small, repositioned my camera and added 4 mesh LODs to each combat ship (well cruiser upwards at the moment) at 100%, 75%, 50% and 25%. All these done in the standard mesh levels way and everything is going great. It occurred to me that A2 has the inbuilt LOD system for textures, textures ending _1 and _2 show up when you are closer to the screen so I tried it on weapon, works great.. so far I have applied this to weapons, nebulas (amazing lag reduction here), worm/black holes, explosions and shockwaves.

There's no question to go with this, I just wonder why, as a modding group, we ignore the lods when it's a simple as resizing something.




F/\}{I´3$

Illiterate? I'm FahreS

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24th March 2006

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#2 8 years ago

hehe good question, ahem sorry you had no question... good point! i think people dont use _1 and _2 tags, because they - dont know about that function - want maximum details from any distance - are too lazy to copy, resize and rename files

I really like lods for 3d models, because you cant see a difference between 2k and 1k polys when your ship is only 2cm long. but this does need additional work and you need to find out how it works.




Guest

I didn't make it!

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#3 8 years ago

The simplest answer is 2 fold.

1 the milkshape exporter will not export LODs. It was never coded to and needs fixed. Right now only the 3dsmax users can do mesh LODs

2 texture LODs have a significant effect on the size of a Download. In the past because of limmited access to highspeed internet there was a push wheather concious or other wise to keep downloads as small as possible.




Achilles

I stole fire from the lighter!

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13th January 2003

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#4 8 years ago

F/\}{I´3$;5242104hehe good question, ahem sorry you had no question... good point! i think people dont use _1 and _2 tags, because they - dont know about that function - want maximum details from any distance - are too lazy to copy, resize and rename files

I really like lods for 3d models, because you cant see a difference between 2k and 1k polys when your ship is only 2cm long. but this does need additional work and you need to find out how it works.[/QUOTE]

it's true, I increased the zoom out in my mod and at 25% of the original poly count (clumsily reduced I might add) I can't tell the difference. I made sure they were working by applying different color textures.

[QUOTE=starfox1701;5242106]The simplest answer is 2 fold.

1 the milkshape exporter will not export LODs. It was never coded to and needs fixed. Right now only the 3dsmax users can do mesh LODs

2 texture LODs have a significant effect on the size of a Download. In the past because of limmited access to highspeed internet there was a push wheather concious or other wise to keep downloads as small as possible.

1 Really? Well how strange, I figured it'd just be a hierarchy issue.

2 Well there is small increase texture wise, I just checked Neon's warbird and it's textures were 4.0mb without lods and 5.31mb with 4 LODs. As for the sod it has basically doubled its, already small, size. That combined with the fact that textures compress really well and I'd estimate it would cost you between a 15-20% increase in file size.




F/\}{I´3$

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#5 8 years ago

starfox1701;5242106The simplest answer is 2 fold.

1 the milkshape exporter will not export LODs. It was never coded to and needs fixed. Right now only the 3dsmax users can do mesh LODs

2 texture LODs have a significant effect on the size of a Download. In the past because of limmited access to highspeed internet there was a push wheather concious or other wise to keep downloads as small as possible.[/QUOTE] while i agree on your second argument, your first one is simply wrong. i did mesh lods with ms3d. see my planck class starship.

[QUOTE=Achilles;5242112]it's true, I increased the zoom out in my mod and at 25% of the original poly count (clumsily reduced I might add) I can't tell the difference. I made sure they were working by applying different color textures.

:nodding:




Freyr VIP Member

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#6 8 years ago

Achilles;5242085nope, not the 90's wrestling tag team :P

So I've been working on reducing lag for my mod, I resized all ships to small, repositioned my camera and added 4 mesh LODs to each combat ship (well cruiser upwards at the moment) at 100%, 75%, 50% and 25%. All these done in the standard mesh levels way and everything is going great. It occurred to me that A2 has the inbuilt LOD system for textures, textures ending _1 and _2 show up when you are closer to the screen so I tried it on weapon, works great.. so far I have applied this to weapons, nebulas (amazing lag reduction here), worm/black holes, explosions and shockwaves.

There's no question to go with this, I just wonder why, as a modding group, we ignore the lods when it's a simple as resizing something.[/QUOTE]

Laziness. When I started the Upgrade Project back in 2005 it didn't take me long to realise that larger textures meant that I needed to budget where I "spent" larger memory sizes. It didn't take me to long to realise that with LOD's you could get away with reducing detail when you couldn't see it which lets you put the detail elseware.

I've been pushing the idea of LOD's for years. I'm convinced everybody thinks i'm crazy for repeatedly pointing out that we could have textures at 2048* or higher at the lowest LOD if people would just use the LOD's properly.

Achilles;5242112it's true, I increased the zoom out in my mod and at 25% of the original poly count (clumsily reduced I might add) I can't tell the difference. I made sure they were working by applying different color textures.

Not only can you not tell the difference between mere fractions of the poly count, the same point applies to textures.

Anybody that's actually taken the trouble to look will know that you can actually get more detail on a smaller texture at a distance. That's because you can edit the texture to look good at a distance instead of watching the game butcher a texture with bicubic sampling to get it to fit. It's not like you actually get more detail on a model taking up two pixels on the screen long at 512* instead of 64* is it?

The problem is that the lazy modders that can't be bothered to produce a decent LOD spoil it for everybody. You can only produce a decent LOD setup by drastic alteration of the existing LOD levels, and doing that requires that all LOD's are consistent across models.

[QUOTE=starfox1701;5242106] 2 texture LODs have a significant effect on the size of a Download. In the past because of limmited access to highspeed internet there was a push wheather concious or other wise to keep downloads as small as possible.

No, they don't. As far as i'm aware, people have never been asked to minimise the size of files being submitted. If we were doing that, the first thing I'd have done was to demand files be submitted in .7z format (7zip, it's free) instead of ZIP to take advantage of the ~ 70% reduction in file size.

LOD's are a quarter of the size of the previous texture. See below:-

2048* =12 MB 1024* = 3 MB 512* = 768 KB 256* =192 KB 128* =48 KB

As you can see, for someone producing a model at 512* adding the next two LOD's would take up 240KB uncompressed and the minimal size increase holds even up to the most massive file sizes.




apoclaydon

Modding Beginner

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7th October 2006

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#7 8 years ago

i thought ms3d exporter didnt support them but now i know it dose i may readd (is the best quality lod0 or the highest number? also how do you attach lods to a mesh.

but yh the ms3d exporter needs fixing (would love fo it to support animation




Achilles

I stole fire from the lighter!

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#8 8 years ago

lod0 is best, I think it goes all the way to 4...

Generally it's added by attaching the lod's mesh to a joint called lodx (I don't know ms3d but i'd assume h_lodx) and attaching that to geometry.

Well I've got a lot of work to do but I'm going back and adding them to all the combat ship meshes I'm using, probably turrets aswell... basically anything produced in mass.

It's real strange but the most performance enhancing change has been from the nebulas and explosions testures having lods.




StarBlade

www.starbase34.net

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#9 8 years ago
Achilles;5242085nope, not the 90's wrestling tag team :P

Legion of Doom! I remember those guys! Ah, memories.... :D

:cool:




F/\}{I´3$

Illiterate? I'm FahreS

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#10 8 years ago

Freyr;5242139

Anybody that's actually taken the trouble to look will know that you can actually get more detail on a smaller texture at a distance. That's because you can edit the texture to look good at a distance instead of watching the game butcher a texture with bicubic sampling to get it to fit. It's not like you actually get more detail on a model taking up two pixels on the screen long at 512* instead of 64* is it?[/QUOTE] :gpost:

Freyr;5242139 The problem is that the lazy modders that can't be bothered to produce a decent LOD spoil it for everybody.

:P

[QUOTE=Achilles;5242151]lod0 is best, I think it goes all the way to 4...

Generally it's added by attaching the lod's mesh to a joint called lodx (I don't know ms3d but i'd assume h_lodx) and attaching that to geometry.

Well I've got a lot of work to do but I'm going back and adding them to all the combat ship meshes I'm using, probably turrets aswell... basically anything produced in mass.

It's real strange but the most performance enhancing change has been from the nebulas and explosions testures having lods.

that sounds right. though i did use only h_lod1 and h_lod2, and h_lod2 is only visible when the ship is really far away