Shinzon & His Not-So Smart Clan -1 reply

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Flash525

The Carbon Comrade

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14th July 2004

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#1 11 years ago

Right, Star Trek: Nemesis, we all know it (feel ashamed if you don't) and we all know the general storyline behind Shinzon. Why he existed, how he came to be, and what his ultimate goal was. A few things that puzzle me about Nemesis and the storyline behind it however. Firstly the Scimitar. It was built at a secret base (presumably somewhere on or near Remus), and no Romulan found out about it. Shouldn't the Romulans have a secure hold on the Remans? In order for them to have pulled off the Scimitar, they've have needed weapons, technology, and materials, which, to be blunt, can't be found on Remus. The Remans are slaves to the Romulans, so how did they acquire this technology? The second thing is this - The Senator that sided with Shinzon and 'assassinated' the others with that Thelaron Radiation thing, she should know Shinzons past, right? Yet, when the commander fella (gray haired guy who seemed to be in charge of the 'group' was talking to Shinzon, when he got off the com, that very Senator said (and I quote) 'What is happening to his face' - Well duh, should she not have known that (her being who she is would have known that he was meant to age quickly) etc. There was a third point which I remember earlier, but have now forgotten :uhm: - Will get that up later if I remember...

Edit: Remembered :lol: - The scene just before Picard gets Deanna to crash the Enterprise (again) he says 'he thinks he knows exactly what I am going to do' - What do you guys suppose that is? - I've always been curious.




akula2ssn

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24th June 2005

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#2 11 years ago

Well first off, we do know from Data's briefing that scans of Remus also showed heavy weapons production as well as dilithium mining. So at least the basic technological know how is for weapons production is present. We also know that Remans were also used as assault forces during the Dominion War. Now one thing that needs to be kept in mind is that just to operate and maintain weapons requires some basic technological background, and the degree of that background increases the more advanced the weapons are.

Secondly, while Shinzon does say that the Scimitar was built at a secret base, We are not told where it was or that it was even an operation done exclusively by Remans. While Riker does point out that Schinzon likely had Romulan collaborators, we are not given any information as to what extent that collaboration was. It is very likely that the ship was actually constructed at a Romulan shipyard on the very outskirts of the empire.

Another problem is the assumption that the senator or the other Romulan collaborators knew of Shinzon's past. That may or may not be a good assumption. Remember that Shinzon is probably around his mid to late twenties, both physically and chronologically. The Romulan commanders would likely have been junior officers or mid level officers at the time he was created, and the senator would likely have been a lower ranking senator or was just beginning her career in the senate. And since the whole project was scrapped when Schinzon was a child, it's just as likely that the senator and commanders would be unaware of Shinzon's origin. It's also likely that records of Shinzon's origins would have been destroyed in order to help prevent him from being discovered, which was something that Shinzon mentioned that the Romulan government was afraid of.

It's also good to keep in mind while looking at what I've said in the above paragraphs that Picard is pretty old, and has been in the service about twice as long as what we would consider a typical career in the service today. When we just look at how long Picard has been in command from the Stargazer to the present Enterprise, it's about 22 years or so. That's about how much time it can take to go from cadet to the rank of captain. He's spent over 50 years in Starfleet from entering the Academy till the events in Nemesis.




Psychokenesis

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16th October 2003

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#3 11 years ago

Nemesis was a half@ssed movie. The plot was utterly pointless and the threat to the Federation never materialized.

Of all the TNG films only First Contact had anything worth making a movie about and the failed to develp a real storyline.

Shinzon and the Remans was retarded on the most highest plot levels. Mostly rubbing me the wrong way was the waste of time on the sexual aspects against counselor Troy...Stewart (Director) most have been a complete pervert to have this as the pivotal point in the movie.

The Shinzon...story line never had a single bit a reality to it. What idiot made up that plot in the Romulan government should really be shot. Shinzon should have been killed.

Placing a human in Star Fleet Academey as a double agent.....That's a good idea. It's been the plot of many books. This execution of that idea was ridiculous.




Stark98

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25th March 2005

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#4 11 years ago

i liked the movie a lot and like akula said, its all true and i cant say it better..




Flash525

The Carbon Comrade

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14th July 2004

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#5 11 years ago
akula2ssn;3500796Another problem is the assumption that the senator or the other Romulan collaborators knew of Shinzon's past. That may or may not be a good assumption. Remember that Shinzon is probably around his mid to late twenties, both physically and chronologically. The Romulan commanders would likely have been junior officers or mid level officers at the time he was created, and the senator would likely have been a lower ranking senator or was just beginning her career in the senate. And since the whole project was scrapped when Schinzon was a child, it's just as likely that the senator and commanders would be unaware of Shinzon's origin. It's also likely that records of Shinzon's origins would have been destroyed in order to help prevent him from being discovered, which was something that Shinzon mentioned that the Romulan government was afraid of.

Deleted Date could be un-deleted, they are Romulans. And as Senitors, they may have enquired as to why a Human boy / man was working the Reman Mines. In all regards, for the Senate as they are, you'd think they'd have more knowlege of the situation.




akula2ssn

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#6 11 years ago

Well a human in a Reman mine isn't necessarily a curiosity since we know Romulans have replaced individuals in the Federation before. Then there's also the case of Enterprise C survivors. Potential prisoners taken from events such as the Tomed Incident and so on. We've seen Romulans integrate large numbers of prisoners before, even Klingon prisoners.

The fact is that government position doesn't necessarily make someone knowledgeable of every secret operation, past or present. Truman wasn't even aware of the Manhattan Project until after he was sworn in as president when Roosevelt died, and he was the vice president. On that same note, in the weeks leading up to Pear Harbor, there was a period of time where the individuals over at Intelligence removed the president from the list of people who would be privy to the decoded Japanese messages. Information is something that can easily be manipulated. Even in a society where information is freely distributed, you cannot be certain that what you see is accurate or truthful. In reality, the reason why you ever get any kind of information in the first place, whether it's truthful or not is because either you have personally dug it up yourself, or someone wanted you to have it.




Stark98

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#7 11 years ago

pff damn akula your notes are very accurate and to the point! Good job, you are always able to to compare something from the future with something of the past(actually present). :mEk:




elevatormusic

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#8 11 years ago

I'll second that statement sov. I'll also put forth the proposition that the basis of Shinzon's military power would've been built secretly and slowly throughout the course of the Romulan Empire's involvement in the Dominion War, which was approximately a year. En route to Romulus, Data makes mention of Shinzon's exstensive war record... "He fought in 12 major engagements of the Dominion War and we can assume he is a capable commander." I think it can plausibly be assumed that Shinzon and his Reman cohorts who survived those battles were able to salvage a good amount of material and ships, a large portion of which may have been cannabalized or otherwise rendered down for other uses. Also ships salvaged could be used in pirating other ships for even more resources. A possibility in regards to the Scimitar's construction at a secret base... it's possible the cloak was perfected prior to the Scimitar's construction. Perhaps it was perfected by the Tal Shiar and then stolen and outfitted on first the 'secret base' itself and then the Scimitar. As for the Senators not necessarily knowing Shinzon's origins... how much information do you think the Tal Shiar would willingly share with the Senate? Especially about a project which was in essence a complete failure.




akula2ssn

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#9 11 years ago

As always with the Romulans, there's always a great deal of speculation involved. In many ways the Romulans do resemble a Soviet type system. Depending on the players involved in the Romulan government and intelligance agencies it can resemble anything from the more open regime of Krushchev to the more closed regime of Stalin, where it wasn't unheard of for individuals to disappear, not just simply physically but also all records of their existance as well. Even photos from the early days of the Soviet Union were doctored to remove individuals that fell out of political favor.

This really makes reconstructing what a perticular individual is likely to have known to be difficult as we have no detailed information about the past of any of the key Romulan figures in the movie. In some ways it's almost like trying to determine who the real historical William Shakespear was and prove which works were actually written by him. Except in his case, we have little bits and pieces with which we can make some inferences.




Flash525

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#10 11 years ago

Well... All my questions have been answered :lol: Thank You fellas.




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