OK, let's get right down to it. I have reason to doubt whether the True Sith exist, and even if they do, whether they are as great a threat as Revan thought. In the ten years between the end of the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Exile's return to the galaxy, no one has seen or heard from the True Sith. The Republic was in ruins after the Jedi Civil War, and it wouldn't be much of an effort to take the galaxy. So where in the nine Corellian hells have the True Sith been? Now, there are many hints in K2 that there is some unknown Sith threat out there. Kreia explicitly says so, but I don't really take Kreia's word for anything. In cut content, Canderous tells Visas that Revan had told him that the Mandalorians were tricked into going to war. That's double hearsay in my book...but let's consider the matter anyway. How hard is it to trick a race of warmongerers into going to war? Even I could do that. I don't believe there is a True Sith threat. I believe that Revan thought there was, but Revan's judgement was clouded by all the emotions of war. If you're going to listen to Kreia, then listen to this: "As Revan and Malak fought the Mandalorians in battle after battle, they grew to despise weakness, just as the Mandalorians did. In the end, the Mandalorians had taught them through conflict. Shaped the Jedi. And turned them into a weapon … against the Republic." There was no manipulation behind the Mandalorian Wars or the Jedi Civil War. The galaxy became the battleground between different groups of warriors who lived only for the glory of battle--first the Mandalorians, and then the Sith.
I follow teh Moo!
9th October 2007
Well, the problem with the so-called True Sith is, as we have amply discussed, there is no real evidence of them existing at all. I agree, Kreia's and Mandalore's statements are questionable, though, I would ask: What possible motive would Darth Traya have to speak of such, if they bear no true relevance to The Jedi Exile's storyline, seeing as she is fighting the Sith Triumvirate? It could be infered Revan was the one to introduce the concept to Kreia, but the character is hardly known for accepting things from hearsay; besides, it is never implied in-game such is the case. Mandalore's statement may be discarded easily, as it is ambigous, but Kreia's is quite precise and clear. The only way to accept the True Sith don't exist is by accepting Kreia is lying, which is something that was clearly denied in-game in regards to the Jedi Exile, or she has been misled by Revan, which appears contradictory to the character's personality. Speaking from an out-game perspective, the True Sith seem to me like the obvious hint at the sequel's antagonists. So, bottom line, even though there is not enough evidence to support the True Sith exist at all, I think they must exist, seeing as their non-existence would deny and contradict several traits in established characters, and definitely substract validity to already recognized events set in both games.
Canderous himself in the first game had said that it was the Sith who convinved Mandalore the Ultimate to take the Clans to war against the Republic. Anyone who has any knowledge of where Revan went (ingame) only says that he went off into the Unknown Regions. We find out through Mandalore that he was ordered by Revan to stay behind and rebuild the Clans into a proper fighting force. From this we can assume that it was to help prepare defenses for the galaxy, so it would be able offer some sort of resistance to whatever threat is coming. Should we believe the things Kriea told us? Why not? Afterall, she had lost. She wasn't a Sith, not in her motivations and goals. She had come to care nothing for gaining power and influence over others. Instead, she wanted to use the Exile as a tool with which to kill the Force. Malachor V. The planet had been established as a Sith academy and stronghold, shrouded in powerful Dark Side energies. These energies were so powerful, that even the Mandalorians were afraid to go their voluntarily. It took great planning on Revan's part to goad them into joing in battle at Malchor V. We know for a fact that the Sith had ways of preventing full death, that they could live on past the death of their bodies. This way at least, they may very well be able to lure others, corrupt them and induct them into Sith ways. Just like Exar Kun. The full extent of the Sith Empire's size is still unknown for definite. I speak of course, not of Revan's empire, but that created by the descendants of Sith & Dark Jedi who interbred. Freedon Nadd showed that the Sith are not above creating a Sith bloodline with which to help increase their own power and control. Ultimately though, we can't say for sure (at the moment) who or what these "True" Sith are, or if they actually do exist. There's not enough evidence to coroborate their existence. Then again, that could be what they want......
OK, a few things... 1. When does Canderous ever say that the Sith were behind the Wars? 2. Revan ordering Canderous to reestablish the Clans...why wouldn't he say that? Revan is responsible for destroying half the galaxy...that's a lot of guilt to bear, and the first order of business would be to rebuild the galaxy--True Sith threat or no. 3. Kreia is a Sith. And she did care about influence. That was all she cared about; that's why she was a master manipulator, commtting small acts that would echo ds and strike at a specific point. And she too had plenty of reasons to lie to the Exile...she did so more than once. 4. Revan established the Trayus academy. When he found it, it was in ruins. For all we know it was part of the other Sith Order that we do know existed--the one from Korriban. 5. Speaking of which, Freedon Nadd, Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos, etc. are completely separate from the True Sith. We have no idea what the real True Sith are and are not capable of, or what their motives are. 6. Kreia hints says specifically in the game that Revan was the one who found Malachor first, and that he returned to her after the Mandalorian Wars were over, to discuss something with her that he couldn't discuss with others. It seems to me that Revan told Kreia of the True Sith.
In KOTOR, when you talk to Canderous a few times he says when asked about why the Mandalorians fought the Republic "The Sith came to us with an offer". If you don't believe me, go back into the game, ask Canderous all the questions you can. Cheat if you have to, but he does say it. Kriea may have been a Sith Lord once, but all she wanted from the Exile was a means with which to destroy the Force itself. Kreia blamed the Force itself for her fall from the Jedi Order, and the loss of her place in the Sith Triumverate. She wasn't interested in living as long as she could, getting as much power as she could, or controlling everything. She was solely focused on the destruction of the Force, especially after the Exile had successfully survived without being able to use the Force for nigh on a decade. Beforehand, it seemed you didn't believe they existed.... now it seems you do? Could you please carify your position on their (potential) existence, and the threat they pose? The "True" Sith may not be True Sith, merely just a name they call themselves. A sort of splinter group or offshoot of the old Sith, much like Bane was to the Brotherhood of Darkness. Either way, if they are Sith, they're coming to corrupt, destroy, and conquer what's left of the Republic, and destroy whatever form of a Jedi Order comes into existence from the Exile's companions. Possibly related to the "True" Sith, another event from KOTOR. When Canderous speaks of the unknown ship that was "encased" within and asteroid. It fled into the Unkown Regions, heading to some sort rendezvous or home base. Whilst many have theorised that it was infact related to the Yuuzhan Vong, is it not also possible that it was some sort of advance probe from the "True" Sith?
I say a lot of things. ;) Anyway...I believe they exist...there is much evidence that they do. But I don't believe they exist anymore, or if they do, I don't believe they were behind the Mandalorian Wars. Even if the Sith did offer the Mandalorians something...what would they need to offer other than a glorious battle? It was Mandalore the Ultimate who chose to go to war, whether the True Sith exist or not. And I don't believe Revan went in search of the True Sith. Carth doesn't believe it, and Carth has good intuition in these matters. In case you don't recall, Carth says he believes that Revan remembered something terrible that he had done, and that Revan went into the Unknown Regions "to put an end to it", whatever that means. Sounds to me like a guilty conscience, not an elusive enemy. My theory: Revan remembered establishing another Malachor, in deep, unknown space. And he went off to destroy it, to kill the last part of him that was the Dark Lord Revan. And if Revan was DS...he went there to find it, to bring them back and conquer the galaxy once again. Now, about Kreia: I know, not everyone agrees with my belief that she's the epitome of the Sith, but...there's more to the story you don't know. Even I didn't know of it until recently. Amongst the many wav files in the StreamVoice folder, are a few cut pieces of dialogue. In it, Kreia tells the Exile her true motive--that she wants to break the Exile, to make her feel the Force once again. To destroy the wound, to put an end to the echo. Kreia wants the Exile to become stronger, for she knows that she will never succeed in killing the Force--but the Exile has managed to kill a bit of the Force inside her. And Kreia does not want the Exile's knowledge to die with her. She wants others to learn how to kill the Force. So, what does she do? In these cut files, she gives the Exile a choice--well, three choices: The Exile can stay on Malachor to wait for other Force sensitives that will come, or she can return to the Republic, or she can go back into Exile, to join Revan wherever he is. Does anyone besides me notice something? If the Exile stays at Malachor, she will teach others what she has learned, strengthening them, and strengthening herself. If she returns to the Republic, she will help to heal it, and perhaps heal herself as well. And if she joins Revan, she will be in exile again, and as before, she will become stronger for it. Kreia tells you early in the game that it is not the destination that is important, but the journey. In each scenario, the Exile will be forced to strengthen herself, and perhaps fulfill Kreia's goal to restore the Force within the Exile.
I didn't make it!
I think the true sith exist.
In each game the Republic got weaker and weaker. But contrary to what TSL said I do not believe that the Republic was teetering on the brink of collapse.
I think that the scenario Terena Adare propsed was the more likely one.
That the Republic was likely to withdraw from its border worlds and once again concentrate on rebuilding itself from within; leaving the rim to rot. Its power greatly weakened but it was not ready to fall apart just yet.
Thus I believe that in the 3rd game the "True Sith" will return to the galaxy (or perhaps it will follow the Exile and Revan in trying to prevent the True Sith returning) and yet another war will begin. Perhaps the True Sith will manipulate a civil war that Revan and the Exile (or perhaps one of the Exiles diciples like Mical) will have to put an end to.
I believe they are wiped out by the time of Star Wars movies but in this period they r very much around.
I follow teh Moo!
9th October 2007
I very much agree with both Fyurii's and Ganoesparan's contributions. Even though there may be cut content regarding Kreia, such data is not officialy recognized within the Star Wars Universe. I wouldn't worry about it if it wasn't for the fact it contradicts in-game, accepted facts. I do think the "spacecraft" the mandalorians found is of Yuuzhan Vong origin, due to the characteristics described by Canderous, I would yet again present my theory on the True Sith being in contact with species from another galaxy. Everything about the True Sith reeks of Yuuzhan Vong, from the apparent lack of existence (I mean, the Unknown Regions are not THAT big if you look at them in a map and reference them to the rest of galactic known space), which would suggest they are not even inside the Star Wars galaxy, the strategic, militar manipulation of in-Republic factions (unlike the Sith Order members, who usually work on political and social manipulation up to that point in the Star Wars Saga, as Kaan and the Brotherhood appeared much later), and the fear they instill in both Kreia and Revan, for they truly recognize their power. What could be greater than Nihilus' Force-draining abilities? What could be darker than the Sith Triumvirate's schemes? Why, a Sith Order tied to the very roots of the original, exiled Dark Jedi, their true descendants, though dramaticaly changed by their contact with the Yuuzhan Vong. Not enough for you? then, I will bring some more data from later sources to the table. In Outbound Flight, set some time after The Phantom Menace, we learn the Chiss were informed by Palpatine's subordinates of a deadly organic-based species bent on galactic domination; hell, the Chiss had already encountered their scout groups! It is not clear how Darth Sidious came to know of this threat, but it is quite possible his master knew, and his master before him. I think the Sith had contact with the Yuuzhan Vong thousands of years ago, as it would explain much of the Vong's anti-Force tendencies, and would justify True Sith's expectations. Why, I would love it if some ingenous author even had the True Sith/Yuuzhan Vong have an all-out war against the Jedi/Republic in times of KOTOR, for it would bring a whole new level of understanding to all of the related concepts, including the ever-interesting Unifying Force, as well as adding new explanations to the 22ABY invasion!! Anyway, yes, it seems the True Sith are very much alive, and they pose our own KOTOR phantom menace.
Yuuzhan Vong...*grumbles* Anyway...I think most cut content from KOTOR has to be considered canon when speculationg about that which we have very little information on. It's like the situation with Nihilus. In K2, we have no idea who/what he is, really. But if we listen to Mr Avellone, then we know that he was intended to be the Exile's other half. Just because stuff was cut doesn't mean it's no longer canon. The HK factory is proof of this. And this goes especially for stuff from the end of the game.
JCarter426;4123252Yuuzhan Vong...*grumbles* Anyway...I think most cut content from KOTOR has to be considered canon when speculationg about that which we have very little information on. It's like the situation with Nihilus. In K2, we have no idea who/what he is, really. But if we listen to Mr Avellone, then we know that he was intended to be the Exile's other half. Just because stuff was cut doesn't mean it's no longer canon. The HK factory is proof of this. And this goes especially for stuff from the end of the game.
In all honesty, we don't need cut content or Chris Avellone's opinions that Nihilus is the "other half" of the Exile. Or to put it into a better context, think of heroes and villians. He-Man and Skeletor. Lion-O and Mumm Ra. Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. Neo and Smith. Each hero must have a nemesis, someone whose power and ability is equal to or slightly greater than that of the hero's. The Exile and Nihilus are two sides of the same coin, only until the Exile is ready. At that point, when the Exile defeats Nihilus, they are no longer the opposite of each other. We can also infer that it is infact largly down to Kreia's guidance and her own scheming that the Exile was ready, and strong enough to face Nihilus. Without her intervention, the Exile would surely have died and Nihilus would have become a far, far greater threat. Hopefully in the future, much (if not most of) the cut content from TSL is made canonical. Based (solely) on the content ingame, along with my own interpretation of it, I have a theory that relates to the "True" Sith, and whatever threat they may pose. This theory is also enforced by much of the cut content from TSL. Even including such content relating to Kreia's motives. My theory (based on the True Sith posing a viable threat to the future of the Republic). Through information imparted to her by Revan, concerning the existence of and the threat posed by the True Sith, Kreia works to strengthen and empower the Exile to become an ally and an asset that Revan would require in his endeavours against the True Sith. With a will and character and strength forged in the crucible of war, hardened by the events of the Mandalorian War then tempered by the subsequent years afterward. The times and experiences of her life after the Mandalorian War, would have made the Exile a great tool and ally for Revan, but only after she had been given focus and a more unorthadox form of training. Which Kreia provided, regardless of what her motivations were in regard of the Exile. Even if my theory turns out to be a big steaming pile of a mistake, it also makes sense. If the True Sith are such a great threat, and Revan would not take any of his previous companions with him, then he would need allies that could be made ready for when they are needed. Revan tasks Canderous with rebuilding the Mandalorian Clans. Revan leaves his companions behind, where they can help to protect the Republic. Admitedly, Nihilus and Sion damage these plans somewhat, but it could work for the better because of them. The fact that they exist, could easily prove to be a threat that cannot be ignored,