TSL: Darker Then K1? -1 reply

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Tulak Hord

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#1 9 years ago

Well, I think yes. Almost all of the jedi are dead, the republic is on verge of collapse, you don't know who to trust, mercs are out to get your head, and everything in the mood feels darker. Nar Shadda drab and dreary and the refugee sector. Dantooine is full of people who hate you (plus salvagers) and remnants of the Sith attack still remain. Dxun/Onderon is crammed with beats and mercs, with political issues dragging you into them. (Okay, that is fun, I admit) Not to mention the constant thunderstorms on Dxun's surface. Korriban has that heavy feeling of death and war and slaughter. Plus the sounds of ghosts. Telos is in a bad situation. And Peragus and be a bit scary, knowing what the droids did and hat you are pretty much alone. (accept for Atton, T3, and Kreia. Later followed by HK-50, Assassin's and Sion) But still, it has that feeling. The characters all seem to have a troubled past. The sith lords look like they went to hell and back several times. Also, the green color of the menu appears to give a sense of....gloominess. Unlike K1, with light blue, nice music, fun planets and environments, good story, and the fact that you could be the savior of the galaxy. Take Tatooine. Compare it to Onderon. Big difference in people and situation eh? Not to mention the story of TSL, thats for another thread. Finally, if you chose LS in K1, the Republic seemed to be in the best position it's ever been in. Then, look at TSL's republic.

Also, take a look at the characters... Kreia: Darth Traya Atton: Killed Jedi, and worked for the Sith Bao-Dur: Activated the Mass-Shadow Generator Mandalore/Canderous: Killed thousands of Repblic troops in the Mandalorian wars HK-47: Worked for Revan (duh) Handmainden: Father was Yusanis, and her mother was killed. Worked under Atris, even though she had potential as a jedi. GO-TO: A droid that could not serve it's fuction of helping the Republic if delivered to Czerka. Visas: Worked for Nihilus, home plant destroyed, blind. (sorta) T3-M4: Knows many of the things Revan did. (Not that bad, unless Revan was DS) Disciple: I rly don't know about him. Never play as fe-male. But from what I've heard, there is obviously I conflict between him and Kreia. You: You are an exile of the jedi order. You fought in the mandalorian wars and killed hundreds of those heartless Mandalorians. You agreed with Revan in the activation of the Mass Shadow generator. You watched in triumph, as the Mandalorians were crushed by Malachor VII's gravity. From this, you are a dead, but extremely powerful spot in the force. Possibly the end of the jedi, sith, the universe, and the Force.

Also, compare DS endings:

K1 DS ending: Bastila: "Malak is dead! All hail the return Darth Revan, the True Lord of the Sith! Sith: All hail Lord Revan! All hail Revan! All hail Lord Revan! Bastila: The Sith bow before you! You have reclaimed your rightful throne! The Jedi Order is in tatters, and it is only a matter of time before your Sith minions wipe them out. The Rebuplic is decimated, The core words are defenseless against us! The sith shall rule again! Sith: All hail Lord Revan! All Hail Lord Revan! All Hail Lord Revan!" And on that note, I'd also like to add that the scene of Bastila's torture with Malak (so that we all know waht I'm talking about: YouTube - Darth Malak Tortures Bastila) was not nearly as girm as, say, the Scene in TSL with Sion, Traya, and Nihilus. (Kreia's Fall) You know, the one where Sion goes WWE (in a stylish and effortless way) on Traya. That was grim. In case you forgot waht happened there, or just want to see it again, here's the link, just so all of us are on the same page. YouTube - Kreia's fall And the ending of TSL not only left you hanging, but you felt, well, bad in a way. I can't explain it, but I never really felt a sense of joy at the end of the DS of TSL. Maybe it's just me.

Consider this...

Indeed, the massive and obcene Force Drain is a trademark of Darth Nihilus. However, since it has been suggested both the Jedi Exile and Nihilus are either two sides of the same coin, or TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN, if you know what I mean, it is possible the girl has the very same potentional to obliterate a planet's entire life-force with a snap of her fingers or some ur ti dac jozk washa mumbo-jumbo whispered with a creepy voice. Now, what J'ster means by suggesting Nihilus may have been responsible of cutting the Jedi Exile off the Force is the famous Force Wound the character presents. One of the greatest revelations in The Sith Lords is the main figure was able to survive the shockwave from the Battle of Malachor V by "being cut off from the Force." Some explanations are given on how this happened, and many speculations have arisen, wether it was self-inflicted, forced upon, or merely a consequence of several factors, including the Jedi Exile's unique phisiology. Whatever the case, the Jedi Exile is a living, breathing, walking "Force Wound." What good JCarter proposes, is the very new, very fresh and interesting idea that Nihilus may have been behind the girl's condition. This, however, would not describe how or when it happened, though a multitude of possibilities come to mind, wether Nihilus was born a separate entity, or... my personal favorite, he is split from the main character during the Massive Generator's detonation. A very bold and attractive approach, and I would love Carter to further elaborate on this. Regarding Sion and his beating tendencies, I have a possible explanation. Beating someone to death isn't as effective as breaking every bone in their body with a Force Destruction skill, slicing them with a lightsaber, or draining the very life with Force Drain. I guess the main factor here is intention. When Sion beat Kreia in the Trayus betrayal, he wasn't trying to kill her, but to make her suffer pain and humilliation. Kreia herself speaks of her "fall from grace" and some of the "indignities" thrown on her. Even during the Harbinger's Duel, as you have noticed, Sion didn't kill her. There are two reasons for this: One, it is Sion's intention to punish Kreia for what he percieves as weakness; and two, Sion's need of Traya's approval. The love-hate relationship between both Sith Lords works that way; Sion hates-punishes Kreia yet loves-submmits to Darth Traya. Further confirmation of these tendencies is given by the way he relates to the Jedi Exile, who he wants dead for being accomplice (weak) and apprentice (strong) of his former teacher. In the end, if you follow the canonical storyline by being a light-sided, female Jedi Exile, Sion develops a love-hate relationship with the main character too. The contributors' insight on Nihilus and Sion being the greatest examples of personality is quite true, and it is that way because both were designed as living aspects of a powerful human characteristic. However, I would add more examples to the equation. To be quite honest, in TSL most characters are powerfuly driven by a single archetype or quality. Just as Sion is the Lord of Pain, Nihilus is the Lord of Hunger, so is Kreia the Lady of Betrayal, Atris the Lady of Resentment, etc. Now, why didn't the High Council cut the Jedi Exile from the Force at the end of the Mandalorian Wars, during the audience in Coruscant?? Simply, because they weren't sure of her true potential and intention. Whatever may be said about them, the Jedi Masters weren't about to do something so rash and extreme without definite proof of the girl's fall to the Dark Side or her impending threat to every single being in the galaxy; besides, most of them felt she had a key role to play in future events. That is, Vrook and the others... Atris was rather... enthusiast... on the Jedi Exile's punishment. :uhm: Indeed, your assesment on the Jedi Exile defeating the Jedi Masters is quite correct. I mean, we are speaking of an individual who has potentialy the skill to drain entire planets off their life-force!! However, ther are some mistakes here. Kreia didn't drain you, since story-wise speaking the Jedi Exile can't be drained; she is a living draining cell. This is why she is the only one capable of beating Nihilus, though, to be quite honest, any average Joe could have done so with an Yssalamari over his shoulder... Besides, Kreia has no intention to harm the Jedi Exile, since she is key to "killing" the Force, Traya's objective all along. Traya didn't go evil, Tulak, she merely showed herself openly, though the gamer should have guessed what she is several hours earlier. Why on Dantooine?? Because her plan was to reunite the last of the Jedi to kill them!! You learn a new Force Power because you were never drained, it can't be done, story-wise. If anything, the Jedi Exile's powers are ever-growing. You are right to state the game revolves around fear, hate, betrayal and desperation, though I would point on a particular thing: Kreia was NEVER afraid. She is the main orchestrator of the plot, she is the only one who knows everything from the very beggining. This is why, when you defeat her at the ending, she is calm and even shares her knowledge of future events. If Traya was ever afraid of anything, it would be the very same she tried to destroy: The Force itself...

Kreia appears to be a friend, even though she never was, and she was using you. Nihilus and Exile seem to have the same power of "Death in the Force" Exile/Revan have opposing qualities. Now, some questions. Nihilus: True, he is a product of Malachor V, but....how? Is he...like,... a void, a black hole, a substance without a true physical shape? And how did he become what he is? Was it that so much death in in area (Malachor) brought forth a terrible being and mutation in the force the lives only to feed? Sion: Yes, we know he is the Lord of Pain. But how? Was he scorched by acid? Was he beaten by Nihilus? (I think so) But how did he come to work with Nihilus? Through sheer will and hatred alone (much like Maw from DFII) he manages to keep himself alive, but what happened to him? What was he like before turning to the Dark Side? And what the hell are his pants and glove made of? And at that, I'd also like to mention that yes, the characters do have (Negative) human emotions. And whats so important about the Trayas Core. Yeah, it's the heart of Malachor and of Trayas academy, but was otherwise, is the reason for the final fight to be there? The feeling I get is that the Exile has finally had revenge, but that it's all been for nothing. Same with LS, except without the revenge part (instead, the Exile finally regains connection to the Force...but it's all been for nothing ;)). That was sort of the point. Mr Avellone explains it best, I think; they intentionally made K2 have an 'Empire Strikes Back ending', alluding to K3 (which they thought they were going to get right to work on after K2). And because of K2, Mr Avellone has vowed never to do an ESB ending again. :giggle: The good thing about that kind of ending is that it leaves you wanting more. However, if it's rushed, as K2 was, it just leaves you feeling like there was supposed to be more. Well, I think the main point wasn't so much the ending as much as the mood; it's dark, and the good guys don't win a single time--or, in K2's case, even if they win they still lose (take, for instance, the beggar who gets the credits but gets beaten up for them). And of course the ending is a cliffhanger (or at least it was supposed to be before it was cut).

About Nihilus...

One theory is that Nihilus is a manifestation of the Exile's old connection to the Force. I think it's possible, though a simpler explanation what that Nihilus did die (or came very close to death), and thus lost his own connection, making him a Force wound, but was somehow able to drain the life from others until he managed to escape from Malachor. Kreia then trained him to use this ability on a much larger scale, and tried to teach him how to control it, but he and Sion exiled her, and so Nihilus grew to be dependent on the ability.

And...

I just have to say that Kreia loved Revan and the exile her apprentices. She hated Nihilus and Sion. Why? I think the reasons why are pretty much self evident. If Nihilus was truly as powerful as we were led to believe, then why didn't he form his own empire, instead of waiting for Revan's empire to collapse, and scavenge off of his? Nihilus only wiped out one planet that I've heard of. Kataar. Both the military and the jedi there were completely unprepared for the attack. And after Kataar, the only thing Nihilus did to the Jedi was kick them while they were down. Why did the exile win against Nihilus? Because she made sure that EVERYONE in Citadel Station was prepared. Every TSF officer was ready for combat. It may have also been a little bit of luck, considering that the Republic fleet came in just in time to help mop up.

I just have to say that Kreia loved Revan and the exile her apprentices. She hated Nihilus and Sion. Why? I think the reasons why are pretty much self evident. If Nihilus was truly as powerful as we were led to believe, then why didn't he form his own empire, instead of waiting for Revan's empire to collapse, and scavenge off of his? Nihilus only wiped out one planet that I've heard of. Kataar. Both the military and the jedi there were completely unprepared for the attack. And after Kataar, the only thing Nihilus did to the Jedi was kick them while they were down. Why did the exile win against Nihilus? Because she made sure that EVERYONE in Citadel Station was prepared. Every TSF officer was ready for combat. It may have also been a little bit of luck, considering that the Republic fleet came in just in time to help mop up.

Ok, first of all, as far as Force-manipulation goes, there has been no one like Nihilus, save the Jedi Exile. If you refer to him being "almost a challenge to Revan" I guess you missed the obcene difference in power. Revan is no match to Nihilus in this department. You all should take a trip to several older threads where this has been already discussed to see the why and how Revan would never stand a chance against Nihilus nor the Jedi Exile, such as Revan VS Exile, Revan Overestimated and The Exile or Revan. Second, as some have already stated, Revan's "achievements", which are not achievements in any way, at least until new information is revealed, are things that don't interest Nihilus, since he has trascended every notion of common life and its desires, save for hunger. So you see, neither power-wise, nor evolution-wise, would Revan, or any other Force-user known to date, save the Jedi Exile, could stand at Nihilus' level. However, as I stated in another thread, any Average Joe with an Yssalamari on his/her shoulders would have easily beaten Nihilus. Such is the irony of Star Wars. And finally, Kreia hates neither Sion nor Nihilus. Superior beings don't hate inferior ones, that's an obvious consequence of power. Both apprentices are pawns of Traya, factors in an equation which need to be balanced, this is why she manipulates the Jedi Exile into eliminating them. As far as TSL goes, we can witness Kreia thinks them inferior to her new pupile, since one has already achieved his potential and remained "weak", and the other has given in to the lure of pure power, disdaining even his human nature. It's not that the Sith Lady hates them; she deems them failures, and one does not hate failures.

Holy shit that's a lot to type, read, and consider. Not all of it was by me, some of it were from my buds from a previous thread about this that I started. This is our wisdom pooled together. Let's hear what you have to say.




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#2 9 years ago

That's a hell of a review. Excellent job. ;) Now, onto several points.

Yes, TSL does have a darker nature than TSL. I think it's rather more that Obsidian did want to add such an emotion to it. Besides, remember that the Jedi have been wiped out, so it's supposed to contain a darker feeling. You can recognize that feeling, indeed, on the known planet Korriban - death and destruction. Why? Because the Sith began to fight eachother - they wanted to rule. Revan didn't return, hence their, let's say, civil war.

You are absolutely correct. Every individual NPC, including party member has a dark history. I guess you've already mentioned the party members - but when looking at some NPCs, for instance, Colonel Tobin; he was an excellent Colonel, but corrupt, rotten. And look of what he's become? Nothing but an utter pawn of Nihilus. Nihilus can, indeed, drain all life out of planets, not to mention the people init. However, I don't think Traya wanted both of the Sith lords dead. Sion may have been a person of brutal, raw power and no knowledge. But; somehow I think Traya didn't only love the Exile, but also Sion. I don't know why I think that though.

Nihilus: True, he is a product of Malachor V, but....how? Is he...like,... a void, a black hole, a substance without a true physical shape? And how did he become what he is? Was it that so much death in in area (Malachor) brought forth a terrible being and mutation in the force the lives only to feed?

He is a shell of his previous being. I, somehow, have the impression that Nihilus was a human being - but destroyed to his very essence when Bao-dur has activated his mass shadow generator. Although very little is known about Nihilus, I guess an idea can't hurt.

Sion: Yes, we know he is the Lord of Pain. But how? Was he scorched by acid? Was he beaten by Nihilus? (I think so) But how did he come to work with Nihilus? Through sheer will and hatred alone (much like Maw from DFII) he manages to keep himself alive, but what happened to him? What was he like before turning to the Dark Side? And what the hell are his pants and glove made of?

Sion was a student at the Korriban Sith Academy. He mentioned it even. When the (civil) war broke out on Korriban, Sion fought along. I think he has been slain by some others. Or maybe he fled, and became an utter, corrupt person. He also learnt much while he was at the Trayus Academy.

And whats so important about the Trayas Core. Yeah, it's the heart of Malachor and of Trayas academy, but was otherwise, is the reason for the final fight to be there? The feeling I get is that the Exile has finally had revenge, but that it's all been for nothing. Same with LS, except without the revenge part (instead, the Exile finally regains connection to the Force...but it's all been for nothing ;)).

It's the heart of the Academy and of Malachor, yes. I think the Trayus core is supposed to be some throne of the triumvirate. I don't think it's meant for something else...

I just have to say that Kreia loved Revan and the exile her apprentices. She hated Nihilus and Sion. Why? I think the reasons why are pretty much self evident. If Nihilus was truly as powerful as we were led to believe, then why didn't he form his own empire, instead of waiting for Revan's empire to collapse, and scavenge off of his? Nihilus only wiped out one planet that I've heard of. Kataar. Both the military and the jedi there were completely unprepared for the attack. And after Kataar, the only thing Nihilus did to the Jedi was kick them while they were down. Why did the exile win against Nihilus? Because she made sure that EVERYONE in Citadel Station was prepared. Every TSF officer was ready for combat. It may have also been a little bit of luck, considering that the Republic fleet came in just in time to help mop up.

Nihilus isn't a human anymore, nor are his thoughts. He doesn't want his own apprentice; he wants slaves instead. As Kreia once mentioned; Nihilus wants to drain all life, to the very last person. He doesn't care for life, nor death.

I guess that's all I have to say. Once again, a very nice review. +REP.


Formerly known as Graeme and Arld.



Tulak Hord

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#3 9 years ago

Thanks so much for your generous rep giving and informative answers. You are very insightful, sir.




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#4 9 years ago

You're welcome. However, the first part was purely based on my own opinion. ;)


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Tulak Hord

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#5 9 years ago

And your own opinion is very good!




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#6 9 years ago

Don't want to rez a somewhat dead thread, but I just played through this game today, and for the first time actually payed close attention to all the conversation, and I thought I kind of understood what Nihilus is

My thought is that he is half man, and the other half of him is the power of Malachor, basically, he's concentrated power, that ended up funneling into one body, he was possibly a sith before Malachor, and after whatever did happen to him, he became Nihilus as we know him. So I don't think even with a Ysalamari could someone (except the exile) kill him, since it's not the force that enabled him to drain life, but rather the power of Malachor. Another thing I found interesting was when Visas said that Nihilus couldn't tell that they were on the ship because he can't see individuals, he sees planets, or masses of life.

Now, something that still somewhat puzzles me is that the Exile is also somewhat of Malachor, as we find out when you meet with all the Jedi Masters. But I think the difference is not that they have opposite ends of the power, it's that the exile didn't really ever use it before peragus, whereas Nihilus basically became a savant of the power, and used it to satisfy all his needs.

But the ending greatly disappoints me, in KOTOR 1 they didn't even really hint at a sequel, and they came out with one in no time, but in KOTOR 2, they leave a TON of loose ends, and still haven't done a sequel after how many years?

EDIT: I also meant to say that, yes I think TSL is much darker than KOTOR 1, because if you think about it, KOTOR 1 was based on the time DURING the Jedi Civil War, and the two sides, were almost at a standstill, with the scale tipping somewhat to the sith's side, whereas TSL showed you the aftermath of the war, all the destroyed worlds, all the funds lost finally being realized, it represented almost a star wars version of the Great Depression in a way




Tulak Hord

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#7 9 years ago

Good insight dude! You're rigt, I never thought of that stuff. Guess I don't read too much dislogue..lol




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#8 9 years ago

Yeah, neither did I, but my 360 kicked the bucket, so I pulled out my old xbox and played through TSL, and payed attention to everything