Ok everyone. Here's the big philosophical question that the Jedi and Sith have been arguing for over 250 centuries (that's 25 milennia or 25,000 years for the mathematically and grammatically disinclined).
Is it a living essense to learn from that guides us, acts through us and wills us to act? (Living Force Theory) Is it a powerful energy field that surrounds us, binds us, creates all life and tht life creates? (Unifying Force Theory) Is it inherently good, therefore having no dark side? Or neither good nor evil, having to depend on the user's intent? (Potentium Theory) Is it but a tool, an extension of the user's will to effect change and manipulate those that are too weak to feel it's influence or hear it calling out? (Sith philosophy) Is it any of these? All of these or non of these? This is the great question that plagues Jedi and Sith alike. What is the Force? Where did it come from? Was it always there? Why do some have more of an affinity for it than others? Why are some beings immune from its effects and others more prone to them? Why are mostly all species in the galaxy closely tied together because of it (there are some species of plant and animal and beings that do not hear the Force and are completely unaware of it) and why are others from outside the galaxy untouched by it? (The Vong) Why have certain groups made a religion out of it? (JediJax, JCarter, et al... are you reading?:cya:) Why have other groups made a cult out of it? What is the lure of the light side? What is the power of the dark side? Why does it take the Force to properly wield a lightsaber? Who discovered this energy field that was originally named Ashla? Why, indeed. I invite you to post your thoughts, your feelings and YOUR theories here. Please feel free to quote sources as much as you would like, if you would like, to support YOUR theories, as long as the sources you quote are verifiable or canonical. DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT QUOTE ANY OF THE SHIT THAT HAS SPEWED FORTH FROM THAT ASS CLOWN SUPERSHADOW'S WEBSITE OR POSTINGS!!!:mad: But most of all, this question is ultimately asking YOU, PERSONALLY, what YOU think the nature of the Force is, not what Mr. Chee, Mr. Avelone, Mr. Lucas or your daddy thinks the Force is. Now, be good little Jedi and Sith (and Bounty Hunters, if you choose that path) and discuss. Remember, have fun! We are here to share our ideas on the Force. I would very much like to hear yours.:D
I'd say this belongs on the general Star Wars forums, but since I never go there... :p
Hmm...I'm of the belief that "the Force" is manipulation of dark matter/energy (like Mass Effect). If you don't know what dark matter/energy is...damn, I'm not mean enough to yell at you to go find out for yourself. :p
Hmm...how can I explain this in idiot-speak--I mean, layman's terms? :p
Well, the universe is constantly expanding. Reality itself--that which exists--is growing bigger and bigger. How, now one knows for sure. One of the most prominent theories is that there is a type of energy that is undetectable that is causing the universe to expand. Like black holes, dark energy and matter cannot be observed directly, but its effects can be; both have significant gravitational effects--one bends space-time, pulling everything into its maw, while the other bends space-time, stretching it out, making the universe itself bigger.
So, if dark energy and matter exist, they have a profound impact on the universe, and one were able to manipulate them, the possibilites would be endless. Furthermore, it is theorized dark energy and matter make up a significant portion of the universe--far more than regular energy and matter.
Obi-wan himself describes it as an energy field, after all. If this is to be taken literally, dark energy is a more likely candidate.
As for the nature of the dark side/light side of the Force, and why life is connected through the Force...that goes well with the theory of "collective (un)consciousness"--that is, all intelligent life is connected to form a greater intelligent life (this is what all of this "will of the Force" stuff is about, I believe). So the Force itself is neither good nor evil, but its will is guided by good and evil people. When there is more good than evil, its will is benevolent, and when there is more evil than good, its will is destructive.
And for the lightsaber part theres some ambiguous cannon that Boba could use a lightsaber, just a side note that it seems that you could use a lightsaber without the force. Its just a whole lot easier., Still just a side note. The force itself... Well looking at it scientificly, JCarter is probably right... However from a philisophical point of view (as the force seems connected to more then science, and seems to address it better this way. Why is it, not what is it.) I'd say living force, unifying force, and sith philosphies/theories are probably most accurate (ironically those are Jedi and Sith views) It is the tool, but it is also the will. It binds everything together (allowing some to use it while pushing others in one way or another). Seeing how we're in the TSL forums it seems approtiate to use Kreia. She seemed to believe in both theories, seeit as a tool "I use it as I would use a poisen" however that was because she was tired of it controlling everyone. Also, she seems to suggest the force does have a will when she say "atton is a fool, but a fool the force looks after." Although I don't see how the Pontium theory is a theory, its just a question...
Well, it is said that the Force helps a Jedi wield a lightsaber and that one untrained in the Force has a better chance of hurting themselves than hurting someone else. But that doesn't mean that someone that spent time understanding the use of a lightsaber couldn't eventually learn to wield one.
JawaJedi;4346147She seemed to believe in both theories, seeit as a tool "I use it as I would use a poisen" however that was because she was tired of it controlling everyone. Also, she seems to suggest the force does have a will when she say "atton is a fool, but a fool the force looks after."
The way I see it, Kreia hates the Force because it enforces its will on her. If my theory is right, and the "will of the Force" is really the combined will of all life connected through the Force, that means that everyone has the ability to enforce their will on Kreia, in some small way. I bet that would drive her crazy.
haha I bet it would.
JCarter426;4349701The way I see it, Kreia hates the Force because it enforces its will on her. If my theory is right, and the "will of the Force" is really the combined will of all life connected through the Force, that means that everyone has the ability to enforce their will on Kreia, in some small way. I bet that would drive her crazy.
Dude. Please keep Kreia out of this thread.....if you want to keep arguing with everyone over the whole "is Kreia Kae" thing, keep it over there, please... :lol: ok just joking....uh..no, I'm not... Ok so I decided to take your advice JCarter and I reposted this thread in the General Star Wars Forum under the same heading. So anyone reading this, if you prefer, yo may go over there and continue this posting. I obviously should not have started it here, but because in the General Forum, it doesn't show who posted to what thread, I thought that many of you might miss this chance to expound on your ideas and feeling of what the post is asking. But don't let me stop you.... if you want to continue postin here, by my guest and thanks.
Well, I think Obi-Wan said it best when he enlightened Luke....
"The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, it penetrates us, it binds the Galaxy together."
It is neither good nor evil, but both. There can be no Lightside without their being the Dark Side, no good without evil etc etc. Nothing of one without its opposite to measure and compare it against.
Does it influence the lives and paths of living beings? To some extent, if they allow it to.
Anakin's views of the Force were those of the Jedi, and as such believed that the Force was their guiding light. For example, were his visions of Padme's death a fixed view of the future? Or, were they merely visions of what may come to pass dependant upon which path he chose? Would his mother have survived had he not gone to her rescue? "Always in motion is the future...."
Perhaps, had he not been so blindly trusting of the Force, Padme might not have died, nor the Jedi Order be thrown into ruin by their own blind adherence to their views and philosophies.
The Sith themselves suffer from the same "affliction" when it comes to the Force that Jedi of the "Old Order" suffered. An absolute belief in the Force, and unqeustioning faith in it, leads to the Sith, Dark Jedi, and Jedi being victims to it.
I think Anakin's view of the Force is a little different that what you posted.
I think Anakin viewed the Force first as what allows the Jedi to do their incredible feats. Then as he learned the ways of the Jedi, the Force became a teacher, a being who's ultimate will was unknown, but might be learned if the user learned to commune with it (Qui-Gon Jinn, anyone?)
Eventually, I think Anakin came to view the Force as the answer to his fears. The ability to gain power to overcome death and become immortal was planted in him by Sidious, perhaps even before his turn in EP III, it just wasn't so blatantly put forth to him until then. As Anakin learned to use the Force, I believe he tried to learn ways to extend life. These and other ideas where big factors to his fall. Perhaps such knowledge was only known through holocrons and datapads accessible only to Jedi Masters or even only to the Council, for purely research and meditative reasons. Such ideas, continuation of life, the power to stop death, were only speculative to the Jedi Order and heresy against the way of nature. Only the Sith were so obsessed in losing their power that they tried to find ways to live forever.
Remember what Yoda tells Anakin: "Death is a natural part of Life. Rejoice for those that turn into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. It leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is." And that is one path towards the dark side. Anger, fear and aggression.
Anger towards those that have wronged you. Fear of losing a loved one, losing your life, losing your power or anything that you hold so close and dear. Agression towards anyone and anything that angers you and makes you fearful.
Remember the Jedi Code:
There is no emotion; there is peace. There is no ignorance; there is knowledge There is no passion; there is serenity. There is no death; there is only the Force.
Now let us look at the Sith Code:
Peace is a lie; there is only passion. Throught passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken.
And the last part that appears in game: The Force shall set me free.
The two philosophies could not be any more disparate. The Jedi view the Force as an all encompassing energy field. Many believe that it is alive, others believe that it has a will that is to be served.
The Sith view the Force as the energy that gives them their power, a tool to be used against their foes to overcome them and their own limitations. In this respect, the Sith are selfish and have a corrupted view of the Force according to the Jedi.
The first Dark Jedi could not understand the Jedi's hesitation to use that power to advance their own agendas. But as the Jedi Council decreed, the Jedi are never to use the Force for personal gain or selfish reasons. The Dark Jedi thought it ludicrous to be demanded to forego the basic natural instincts of emotions, since it was emotions that fueled the Force. But it was the discovery of which emotions were most detrimental to the Jedi way that caused them from being allowed in instruction. The Sith merely do away with what they saw as weakness on the part of the Jedi.
To the Sith, anger, rage, fear and loss were very powerful emotions that could harness power. The Jedi were calm, cool and collected. To the Sith, the more base emotions gave way to greater strength in using the Force and the philosophy developed from there.
I would agree with your statement that both the Jedi and the Sith, to some degree and on some level, are servants to the Force. Whether you be Jedi or Sith, you are addicted to it's power. Like Palpatin tried to instruct Anakin "Remember back to your early teachings; those with power are afraid of losing it."
That point can be argued by the conversation that Mace Windu and Yoda have when Windu suggests that they inform the Senate that thier ability to use the Force has diminished. Yoda responds by saying that the enemies of the Jedi would multiply, implying that those once fearful of the Jedi would muster the courage to launch physical and political attacks on the Order. Indeed, it would seem that the Jedi are fearful of losing their power.
The Sith are forever fearful of losing their power. It was the Sith way for a master to instruct his apprentice, but not to teach them everything that the master knew, for it was also the Sith way for when the apprentice learned all that he could, the master ceased to be a useful resource and then must be sacrificed to allow the apprentice to rise as the new master. This is also argued for when Palpatine relates the legend of Darth Plegious the Wise to Anakin. We know that Plegious discovered some arcan Sith Sorcery allowing him to create life. However, Sidious slew him in his sleep and claimed the mantle of Dark Lord for himself before Plegious might have passed on that knowledge to Sidious. It also relays the impatience that can be inherent to the dark side.
While Darth Zannah was wise enough to understand that patience would be eventually rewarded if Darth Bne were to continue to live and teach her, Zannah also understood Bane's teachings that once she had learned all his secrets, she would have to challenge Bane for supremacy and take his place as master and Dark Lord of the Sith.
The fact that Yoda was able to absorb and deflect Force Lightning without a lightsaber is testament not only to his hundreds of years as a Jedi, which obviously afforded him time to study and research the abilities granted by the dark side and how to defend against them, but his understanding of the Force and its nature as well.
Bear in mind the Sith Code was created by exiled Dark Jedi. With that in mind, it's just a bastardised version of the Jedi Code.
Both Sith/Dark Jedi and the Jedi have the same and possibly their greatest weakness. Their belief and reliance on The Force.
For either Light or Dark Side, The Force is like a narcotic to which they are addicted, and more often than not, helpless without.
What they should do, is use it in the manner that Kreia said in TSL, like a poison in small doses.