A killer, and justice. 19 replies

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Mad Cat

Your mama on a stick.

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28th December 2005

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#11 12 years ago

Even here in Belgium, there was a case about cops fighting an immigrant woman at the airport who they deemed 'suspect' and they jumped on her and fought (while she didn't even fought back or threatened anyone) so hard that the woman died because she couldn't breathe because of the weight of the four cops on her. But, unlike in the case of this thread, the cops got a seriously long prison sentence.




Hawkeye18z

livE raW doG

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6th August 2005

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#12 12 years ago

That guy got a world class beating. He looked like he healed alright. I'm not doubting that the police beat the hell out of him but, I wonder what that third story jump did to him.

I don't have any sympathy for him, after all he's still breathing, his victims aren't.




Mephistopheles

IME and myself

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28th December 2004

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#13 12 years ago
mad cat;3617081Even here in Belgium, there was a case about cops fighting an immigrant woman at the airport who they deemed 'suspect' and they jumped on her and fought (while she didn't even fought back or threatened anyone) so hard that the woman died because she couldn't breathe because of the weight of the four cops on her. But, unlike in the case of this thread, the cops got a seriously long prison sentence.

I don't know about this case but that was not my question. MA claimed that German/French police officers tend to use more unnecessary violence against suspects than American police officers do (if I understood him correctly). I wanted some facts about it.

On the other hand, I don't doubt that police brutality happens. But the media often shows half-truths as I have witnessed at first hand. A good example is the German "Spiegel TV" which often leaves out important facts to show only one side of the story.




Hawkeye18z

livE raW doG

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#14 12 years ago
Mephistopheles;3617131I don't know about this case but that was not my question. MA claimed that German/French police officers tend to use more unnecessary violence against suspects than American police officers do (if I understood him correctly). I wanted some facts about it. On the other hand, I don't doubt that police brutality happens. But the media often shows half-truths as I have witnessed at first hand. A good example is the German "Spiegel TV" which often leaves out important facts to show only one side of the story.

I'm familiar with both American & German police. I've always felt the German Polizei are the best trained/educated law enforcement that I've ever seen. There is so much nepotism in America that you get a very low quality individual. ie, Daddy was a cop & he get his sorry son in too. Here is an example that happened to me personally: In Heidelberg, every year we had a joint German-American Volksfest. I stayed late, was very drunk, my ride had departed, and the taxis had stopped running. I started walking to Patton Kaserne; 2 steps forward, 1 step back.....very drunk. There was a minor vehicle accident and the Polizei were dealing with it. One of the officers stopped me and asked where I was going. I told him & he told me to wait in his car. I figured I was going to the lockup & was thinking how my Commander was going feel about getting called and having to come get me. They took me to the gate of Patton Kaserne & let me out. In the US, I would have gone to jail for public drunkeness. In Germany, I got a ride home.




Joe Bonham

Quetron's alt account

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10th December 2005

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#15 12 years ago
Mephistopheles;3617010Care to explain why you think so?

Why they do it? Just common sense if you ask me. If some thug's screwing with you, I don't see any reason why you should put up with it. Its harder for American cops 'cuz they're under surveillance all the time, and get their asses hauled in court if they so much as lift a finger against someone. I believe giving cops some more leeway would lower our prison population. If a cop can just have a "chat" with a punk giving him trouble, that would be more practical than spending tens of thousands of dollars putting a shoplifter on trial.




Mephistopheles

IME and myself

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#16 12 years ago

Hawkeye18z;3618050One of the officers stopped me and asked where I was going. I told him & he told me to wait in his car. I figured I was going to the lockup & was thinking how my Commander was going feel about getting called and having to come get me. They took me to the gate of Patton Kaserne & let me out. In the US, I would have gone to jail for public drunkeness. In Germany, I got a ride home.[/quote]Fine that it turned out this way :beer:.

On the other hand, public drunkeness is no offence in Germany and you will never get into custody for it as long as you are not a direct danger to other people.

In your case they did what any other German police officer would normally do (if the taxis are out of service): bring you home safely to protect you from an accident / robbery.

Machiavelli's Apprentice;3619621Why they do it? Just common sense if you ask me. If some thug's screwing with you, I don't see any reason why you should put up with it. Its harder for American cops 'cuz they're under surveillance all the time, and get their asses hauled in court if they so much as lift a finger against someone.

So besides your personal opinion you have no facts undermining your statement...

Regular experiences with violent behaviour can result in violent behaviour as well. Overall, cops in Germany and France are less often confronted with violent criminals than cops in the USA. Shootings still occur very rarely here and gang violence is nearly not existent.

Here, no cop is alone on patrol so that each cop is protected by at least another one. Of course, this also reduces the risk of criminal behaviour because every cop is also watched by another one.

[quote=Machiavelli's Apprentice;3619621]I believe giving cops some more leeway would lower our prison population. If a cop can just have a "chat" with a punk giving him trouble, that would be more practical than spending tens of thousands of dollars putting a shoplifter on trial.

Police officers are quite respected here and I think your proposal would change that. We don't need almighty Judge Dredds to deal with criminals.

Besides, shoplifters are rarely put on trial here as well. They normally get away with paying a fine if they don't have a criminal record.




Joe Bonham

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#17 12 years ago
Mephistopheles;3620004Fine that it turned out this way :beer:. On the other hand, public drunkeness is no offence in Germany and you will never get into custody for it as long as you are not a direct danger to other people. In your case they did what any other German police officer would normally do (if the taxis are out of service): bring you home safely to protect you from an accident / robbery. So besides your personal opinion you have no facts undermining your statement... Regular experiences with violent behaviour can result in violent behaviour as well. Overall, cops in Germany and France are less often confronted with violent criminals than cops in the USA. Shootings still occur very rarely here and gang violence is nearly not existent. Here, no cop is alone on patrol so that each cop is protected by at least another one. Of course, this also reduces the risk of criminal behaviour because every cop is also watched by another one. Police officers are quite respected here and I think your proposal would change that. We don't need almighty Judge Dredds to deal with criminals. Besides, shoplifters are rarely put on trial here as well. They normally get away with paying a fine if they don't have a criminal record.

Well then, if what you say is true - then American cops would be far less violent than European police - they are heavily monitored, and the fear of lawsuits is ever present. Anyway, I'm not sure why you find the idea of a cop defending himself effectively so offensive. Would you prefer him to curl up into a little ball, or run away perhaps?




Mephistopheles

IME and myself

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#18 12 years ago

Machiavelli's Apprentice;3621447Well then, if what you say is true - then American cops would be far less violent than European police - they are heavily monitored, and the fear of lawsuits is ever present.[/quote]As long as you don't bring in some facts I will dismiss your hypothesis that French and German police officers abuse their power more than American officers as unproven opinion. Actually, I think I don't even want to continue this unnecessary debate you started.

[quote=Machiavelli's Apprentice;3621447]Anyway, I'm not sure why you find the idea of a cop defending himself effectively so offensive. Would you prefer him to curl up into a little ball, or run away perhaps?

Beating the shit out of a suspect is not a defensive measure.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

Voice of joy and sunshine

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26th May 2003

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#19 12 years ago

He jumped out of a third floor window after shooting a cop, actively resisted arrest, put his hand inside his coat and later inside his shirt sleeve both of which could have been to reach for a weapon all considered. And all he got was a little bruised up. It looks spectacular but considering his exploits I don't see any reason to assume the officers used more force than was necesary




Mephistopheles

IME and myself

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#20 12 years ago

I agree. Maybe my last post was confusing. I meant that beating up suspects as a retributive measure in general is not all right, not that it actually did happen in this case.




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