A Question of Bigotry and Freedoms 32 replies

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masked_marsoe VIP Member

Heaven's gonna burn your eyes

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16th April 2005

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#1 10 years ago

So Israel's latest war is pretty much over and done with. But in these far Antipodean isles, another controversy has been brewing.

It started in an Invercargil cafe (Invercargil being the chief city of Southland, about as far south as one can travel without getting to Antarctica).

Two women went to a Turkish cafe, and casually chatted away in Hebrew. The owner of the cafe discovered this, and ordered them out, saying that Israelis were not welcome in his cafe while the war was going on. Only one of the women was Israeli, the other a New Zealand citizen, and frankly, it's highly unlikely that he would ban Israeli Arabs from his cafe, so essentially he was banning Jews.

Of course, this didn't go down too well (the Jewish population of Southland outnumbering the Turkish by at least 2 to 1), and complaints went to the Human Rights Commision, who quickly pointed out it was illegal to ban anyone from a business because of their race, religion, or nationality.

But the issue got picked up in the media, and far more importantly, the blogosphere, where further discussion took place. From the depths of the froth-mouthed far right came the message - it's your natural right to be a bigot or a racist, and government has no place telling businesses who they can't ban from their premises.

I of course, beg to differ, the idea of it scares me. The world has seen such signs before and we know where they lead, and we should have moved past it.

What do you think? Do your Inaliable Freedoms give you the right to bar whomever or whichever racial/ethnic/religious/social/political group from your premises? Do your Freedoms give you the right to be a racist if you so choose?




Goody. VIP Member

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26th July 2005

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#2 10 years ago
masked_marsoe;4776596 What do you think? Do your Inaliable Freedoms give you the right to bar whomever or whichever racial/ethnic/religious/social/political group from your premises?[/quote]This happens everyday and in most countries. From the story you told down to people being refused entry into clubs for having the wrong footwear on. Proprietors have the right to refuse entry / service to anyone they want in the UK. This does not mean I agree with it but it is just the way it is. Business's that enforce strict policies like that tend not to last long were as the ones that serve the community as a whole last much longer. [quote=masked_marsoe;4776596] Do your Freedoms give you the right to be a racist if you so choose?

To a degree it does and that goes for all colors, creeds and religions. Most major cities in the UK have a big degree of segregation that has not been forced. People in general will stick closer to there own kind but that is not always based on race. Sometimes that is based on wealth or religion.




Mr. Matt VIP Member

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#3 10 years ago
masked_marsoe;4776596What do you think? Do your Inaliable Freedoms give you the right to bar whomever or whichever racial/ethnic/religious/social/political group from your premises? Do your Freedoms give you the right to be a racist if you so choose?

A person has every right to be the biggest, most hateful racist bigot the world has ever seen.

They just aren't allowed to act on it. Your rights end where mine begin and all that jazz.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

Voice of joy and sunshine

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26th May 2003

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#4 10 years ago

As a business you make use of the infrastructure provided by the taxing of society, including those elements you wish to evict. If you want to start refusing service to certain sections of society then get the fuck off my roads :).




Crazy Wolf VIP Member

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#5 10 years ago

What Herr Matt said. People are allowed to think racist stuff, but it is (and should be) illegal to act on it, to deny services to people who need/want it based on their race/nationality is, well, stupid. Thinking about this reminded me of the pharmacists who don't give out birth control to teens/don't give out birth control at all, but I'm having a hard time finding the words to properly tie those ideas together.




Demonseed VIP Member

Gettin' real tired of you ducking me, man...

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29th December 2004

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#6 10 years ago

This is perfectly acceptable. As a private business owner, I can (and should) have the right to refuse service or bar entry to anyone I choose.

Now, I realize that that means you may have people being denied service due to race, religion, skin color, or whatever. That's where the second aspect of the free market kicks in. People tend to not support bigots and racists for very long once the word gets out. In this, as in most everything, the market will correct itself far better than any government law or regulation can.

This reminds me of the thread a few months back on here about the laws banning smoking in bars/pubs. It's the same principle, just applied slightly differently. The smoking laws are completely unconstitutional, and wouldn't stand up to a supreme Court challenge. It's just a matter of someone having the funding to pursue that challenge.

The long of short of all this (tl:dr version) is that it's my business, and I have the right to run it how I see fit. Of course I also have to live with the consequences of how I choose to run it. Such is life in a free country.




Al the Octopus

Hold my calls.

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#7 10 years ago
Mr. Matt;4776629A person has every right to be the biggest, most hateful racist bigot the world has ever seen. They just aren't allowed to act on it. Your rights end where mine begin and all that jazz.

That.




Guest

I didn't make it!

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#8 10 years ago

Private business can refuse service to anyone on any grounds, as far as I'm concerned. Only public services (i.e. schooling, roads, other government offices) should be regulated to be free of bigotry.

Also, I would put forward the notion that though you can choose to deny service to anyone, you should have to provide the same services for the same cost to the people you do choose to serve.




LIGHTNING [NL]

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#9 10 years ago

You guys must have not been paying attention in history class.

The banning of jews from German businesses in the 1930s. That's completely normal and acceptable behaviour to you? Did your "free market" principle have any effect on that? I don't think so.

Banning black people from stores in the US in the 1960s - do you also think that should be allowed?

This is pure and simple racism, which is, and should be illegal.




Demonseed VIP Member

Gettin' real tired of you ducking me, man...

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#10 10 years ago

'LIGHTNING [NL;4776799']You guys must have not been paying attention in history class.

The banning of jews from German businesses in the 1930s. That's completely normal and acceptable behaviour to you? Did your "free market" principle have any effect on that? I don't think so.

Banning black people from stores in the US in the 1960s - do you also think that should be allowed?

This is pure and simple racism, which is, and should be illegal.

It is illegal to deny access to public services, or housing, or public schools based on race, color, or creed. However, these are all publicly funded affairs. The banning of Jews by the Germans was government sponsored, a far different affair. The same is true of the segregation laws in the 60's in the US.

We're not discussing publicly funded enterprises, or laws of this type. We're talking about private businesses. If I own a business, I can choose whatever criteria I want on who to serve. But, as I said above, I will have to live with the consequences of that choice.

Let's face it, in this day and age, any businessman who refuses to serve someone because of their race or religion will not only become an object of public scorn, they will quickly be out of business. That's how the market works, and the government should stay out of the way and let it work.

It's never been possible to legislate morality. Attempting to do so is an exercise in futility, and a waste of public funds. As Afterburner, the only case to be made is that those who are served receive comparable service for the same price.