A story from me 65 replies

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Banach

Governor of state of insanity

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27th February 2006

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#11 11 years ago

tyrannicida;4208248

In regard to the story, what about handcuffing the boys or knocking them out?

the boys would make a ruccus if approached by the soldiers to be handcuffed. knocking them out really wasn't an option either... Its really hard to tell, especially when its a young child, when is the point of knocking them out and actually suffacating them to death or breaking their necks.

The book is actually called Lone Survivor and I have my facts slightly off, but the story is the same.




Karst

I chose an eternity of this

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6th January 2005

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#12 11 years ago

S.T.A.L.K.E.R.;4208281You think you can fight a war like a bunch of happy pansy's dancing around in a field of flowers singing "joy to the world" while holding hands?

War. Is. Hell. They could have killed them, knocked them out, done something but they chose to leave them be (probably to avoid the negative PR) and it bit them in the ass.

The entire (official) point of the war was to rid the country of a brutal, oppressive regime. If the security of civilians starts to be compromised for convenience or by negligence, then the mission has failed.

Aside from that, if you ask me, if a mission like that can be bring up such a decision and be jeopardized by two boys, and there was no option to back out or anything, obviously wasn't planned out very well in the first place.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

Voice of joy and sunshine

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26th May 2003

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#13 11 years ago

The captain fucked up pretty bad, he should just have ordered (yep folks, militaries aren't democracies) the boys be shot. Necessary sacrifices and all.




MrFancypants Forum Admin

The Bad

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#14 11 years ago
S.T.A.L.K.E.R.;4208211 War is hell, and horrible things happen during a war. You can't enter a war half assed, and sadly if you want any chance of winning you have to do anything necessary to win.

The ability to commit atrocities is hardly the deciding factor in a war (in a guerilla-war it can even be contraproductive), this is just an excuse for soldiers to use the easy solution of killing everything that could be a problem.

There are enough examples of soldiers who managed to fight succesfully while still holding on to some of the values that a normal person believes in.

In this case the cause of the soldiers being killed was their inability to avoid contact with the population and their inability to come up with a reasonable solution when they were detected (like knocking those kids out or leaving someone behind to guard them).

This whole story, as it is told here, is rather pathetic as it tries to establish a myth of the unbeatable American specops soldier who killed scores of enemies and only died because of his superior moral values and undermines those values at the same time.




Karst

I chose an eternity of this

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6th January 2005

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#15 11 years ago
Nemmerle;4208823The captain fucked up pretty bad, he should just have ordered (yep folks, militaries aren't democracies) the boys be shot. Necessary sacrifices and all.

Why bother waging war against a violent regime in the first place then if you don't care about such things? At the point when someone would even consider such an atrocity the war has lost its meaning.




Tas

Serious business brigade

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4th September 2004

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#16 11 years ago
Karst;4208943Why bother waging war against a violent regime in the first place then if you don't care about such things? At the point when someone would even consider such an atrocity the war has lost its meaning.

Imagine these spec ops soldiers were assassinating a random hitler type responsible for countless dead innocents, killing these boys would have allowed them to stop the bad guy from killing *way* more than two people.




Karst

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#17 11 years ago
Tas;4209068Imagine these spec ops soldiers were assassinating a random hitler type responsible for countless dead innocents, killing these boys would have allowed them to stop the bad guy from killing *way* more than two people.

True, but we aren't exactly talking about a "Hitler scenario" here. And I also mean in general, as soon as "war is dirty" is considered sufficient justification for committing atrocities, something has gone terribly wrong.




Roaming East

Ultima ratio regum

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7th November 2005

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#18 11 years ago

For the Greater Good. should be the realistic motto of any special forces operator. Lets put it into perspective. In this scenario, we have a high number of irreplaceable US casualties, and a failed objective, the objective being a Warlord whom we can only infer was actively waging armed conflict in the region. So in an effort to save 2 lives, you end up allowing a man to escape who will later go on to kill MORE people undoubtedly military AND civilian. Youve lost your chance to stop this from occuring and at the same time caused the destruction of not only your own team but following temas as well.

For the life of 2 boys, a thousand other individuals will probably die from that decision. Good call on that one.

For what its worth, it sounds like sappy movie drama. The Entacs i know wouldnt bat an eye at calling down a 2000lb laser guided bomb on a house with a known terrorist in it. Regardless if there are children and noncombatants present. How do you think Zarqawi bought it?




Karst

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#19 11 years ago
Roaming East;4209097For the Greater Good. should be the realistic motto of any special forces operator. Lets put it into perspective. In this scenario, we have a high number of irreplaceable US casualties, and a failed objective, the objective being a Warlord whom we can only infer was actively waging armed conflict in the region. So in an effort to save 2 lives, you end up allowing a man to escape who will later go on to kill MORE people undoubtedly military AND civilian. Youve lost your chance to stop this from occuring and at the same time caused the destruction of not only your own team but following temas as well.

Aside from a single scenario like this you have to consider the principle of morality behind it. A war like the one in Afghanistan is supposed to have the clear principle of liberating the country from the horrible regime of the Taleban. And the clear stance of being "on the right side" of the conflict is compromised severely by such an attitude.

Look at it this way: the Coalition troops are supposed to be "better" than the insurgents. But you could have the same scenario the other way around, would it be right for a fighter to kill civilians in order to kill some important U.S. commander, who would otherwise undoubtedly kill numerous other fighters? When you can support a moral decision that can be turned around like that, in an overall situation like Afghanistan, there's something wrong.




MrFancypants Forum Admin

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#20 11 years ago
Roaming East;4209097 For the life of 2 boys, a thousand other individuals will probably die from that decision. Good call on that one.

That's pure speculation. Killing those children wouldn't have automatically lead to a success of the mission. It could also have sparked other events, such as increased resistance from relatives of the boys, which in turn might have lead to more deaths. It is even possible that one of the soldiers would admit to killing a child in cold blood because his team of so-called specops guys was unable to find another solution which could have eventually lead to the withdrawal of forces from other nations. The warlord could have been replaced by a more brutal leader in case of his death, his death could have rallied more people to his cause or etc. etc.

Many soldiers tend to narrow such situations down to where there is an easy solution that happens to coincide with what they have been taught: to kill. If some common sense were applied it might be possible to find a solution that doesn't involve shooting at the problem.