Abolish the Pledge of Allegiance 175 replies

Please wait...

Dot Com

I'm too cool to Post

50 XP

26th June 2000

0 Uploads

6,116 Posts

0 Threads

#1 10 years ago

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."

Why do we force millions of kids to chant this nationalist tripe day after day? You can say that "oh, well the child doesn't really have to say it if he doesn't want to", but wouldn't that pretty much make the kid an outcast? Yes, yes it would.

Back in the day they even made the kids do a thing called the "Bellamy salute. Hmm, this looks familiar.

Pledge_salue.jpg

I say abolish it so kids don't have to eat forced nationalism at a young age.




Tas

Serious business brigade

50 XP

4th September 2004

0 Uploads

7,275 Posts

0 Threads

#2 10 years ago

It's no doubt that it is a pointless tradition.

People will oppose your idea's because it is just that. It has always been, therefore it must remain.




Orchidea

Concentrate on the NOW.

50 XP

18th September 2008

0 Uploads

397 Posts

0 Threads

#3 10 years ago

Traditions? use the garbagebin pleeeaaase.




Guest

I didn't make it!

0 XP

 
#4 10 years ago

I don't see what is wrong with the pledge, especially since you are pledging allegiance to the nation as a whole. It isn't, or at least shouldn't be recited as an allegiance to the U.S. Government. I should be thought of as a pledge to uphold the ideals of the Constitution, and to uphold liberty, freedom, democracy, and all of that other good stuff.

Also, nothing wrong with that salute, it's just become associated with Nazism. It's a rather generic salute that many nations have used in the past, going all the way back to Rome, if I can remember correctly.




Inyri Forge VIP Member

[Insert User Title Here]

55 XP

15th March 2005

0 Uploads

25,940 Posts

0 Threads

#5 10 years ago

Jeffro;4784485"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."

Why do we force millions of kids to chant this nationalist tripe day after day? You can say that "oh, well the child doesn't really have to say it if he doesn't want to", but wouldn't that pretty much make the kid an outcast? Yes, yes it would.

Back in the day they even made the kids do a thing called the "Bellamy salute. Hmm, this looks familiar.

Pledge_salue.jpg

I say abolish it so kids don't have to eat forced nationalism at a young age.

Godwin's law says you lose this thread already.

Realistically the pledge of allegiance doesn't have nearly the important it once held. I don't' remember the last time I said it, which means it was probably back in primary school at some point. I remember in 4th grade we didn't recite the pledge of allegiance, we recited the declaration of independence (more as both a learning exercise and an exercise in memorization, which I feel in the long run helped me more academically than patriotically).

Patriotism isn't bad, and instilling a sense of national pride in our children isn't really that bad either. It helps give children some sort of national identity. If schools forced kids to keep repeating it throughout middle school, high school, college, etc it would probably be overly excessive and would defeat the original purpose entirely. In my experience that didn't happen, but perhaps it's different in other areas.




Dot Com

I'm too cool to Post

50 XP

26th June 2000

0 Uploads

6,116 Posts

0 Threads

#6 10 years ago

Afterburner;4784530I don't see what is wrong with the pledge, especially since you are pledging allegiance to the nation as a whole. It isn't, or at least shouldn't be recited as an allegiance to the U.S. Government. [/quote] Why should children be pledging any sort of allegiance to a flag or to the United States? It just screams to the kids that obedience and conformity is the preferred way of life. And even if I could somehow convince myself that it isn't wrong to force kids to say it, the words are empty anyways.

There isn't liberty and justice for all. That's a bullshit myth.

I should be thought of as a pledge to uphold the ideals of the Constitution, and to uphold liberty, freedom, democracy, and all of that other good stuff.

Again, it's empty rhetoric that provides false hope to youngsters.

Also, nothing wrong with that salute, it's just become associated with Nazism. It's a rather generic salute that many nations have used in the past, going all the way back to Rome, if I can remember correctly.

I know. I just found the coincidence amusing. ;)

[quote=Inyri]Godwin's law says you lose this thread already.

Where did I say "Boy, those kids are evil nazis"? I merely enjoyed the coincidence.

Patriotism isn't bad, and instilling a sense of national pride in our children isn't really that bad either.

Shouldn't the children instill the belief of national pride themselves instead of being coerced by whomever into loving the nation?




Granyaski VIP Member

High as a kite

107 XP

29th May 2008

0 Uploads

11,881 Posts

1 Threads

#7 10 years ago

you mentioned the Nazis before I did....without harming anyone I sometimes find that America can be very Nationalist with all the flags and even with the bill of rights especially with the bearing arms....




Guest

I didn't make it!

0 XP

 
#8 10 years ago
Jeffro;4784548There isn't liberty and justice for all. That's a bullshit myth.

It's not a question of what is there, it's a question of what should there be. The idea is that there should be "liberty and justice for all" and that the gross injustices present in this country need to be rectified. It's not a pledge to serve the state, it's a pledge to serve the people.

Again, it's empty rhetoric that provides false hope to youngsters.

Or provides them the encouragement and values they need to rectify what is wrong.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

Voice of joy and sunshine

298,628 XP

26th May 2003

0 Uploads

28,166 Posts

6 Threads

#9 10 years ago
Afterburner;4784530I don't see what is wrong with the pledge, especially since you are pledging allegiance to the nation as a whole. It isn't, or at least shouldn't be recited as an allegiance to the U.S. Government. I should be thought of as a pledge to uphold the ideals of the Constitution, and to uphold liberty, freedom, democracy, and all of that other good stuff.

What is a nation? A bit of land? Nations come and go but the land endures largely unchanged. Is it then the people within the nation? The people die but the nation endures. A nation is a political definition, it is a label applied to the system of government and can properly expressed be nothing else.

What then of these things you say it is supposed to be a pledge to uphold? They are nonsense.

Life? Say you have two people marooned on an island who can only survive by eating the other, which one has the right to life? Liberty? If you take the life of another and are imprisoned for it where does your right to live as you want, in a state of freedom, then descend from? Democracy? That is also regularly denied to people, based upon age - social standing, your position within society and your access to the political systems. It is not even desirable that democracy should be upheld for all. None of these things are rights, constitutional or otherwise; man has no universal or natural rights of any kind.

'Rights' are, properly expressed, nothing more than privileges contingent on social power relationships. The minute those power relationships are violated the right is revealed for being nothing of the sort and the constitution which lays claims to these things is no more than a pathetic rag of unsupportable hypocrisy; with any pledge to uphold a falsehood by default.

Yet you give kids the false impression that these things are other than what they are in order that they may make such a pledge, you lie to them and by doing so aid in the prevention of them building their world view on a solid basis of reality. That’s not something that should be in an education system, it’s not the state’s place to distribute political ideology – especially when it’s so demonstrably irrational.




Inyri Forge VIP Member

[Insert User Title Here]

55 XP

15th March 2005

0 Uploads

25,940 Posts

0 Threads

#10 10 years ago
Jeffro;4784548Where did I say "Boy, those kids are evil nazis"? I merely enjoyed the coincidence.

Humor, Jeffro. I know you understand it. =p