Abortion, Pro-Choice, and Pro-Life 24 replies

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Andron Taps Forum Mod

Faktrl is Best Pony

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#1 6 years ago

Ok guys, seriously I want real answers and opinions. First off, I'm assuming most of you understand the biology of pregnancy and etc. So I'm not looking for a scientific answer, I'm looking for a philosophical, personal answer.

This video pretty much represents my view on the subject:

But I would like to hear some other viewpoints. If you vote for one of the options you must give a clear argument for why you picked that option.


"I'd shush her zephyr." ~ Zephyr.



Nemmerle Forum Mod

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#2 6 years ago

It's not really too much of an issue for me. I don't assign a high value to life of itself. Yes, they're human. And? So's a person in a persistent vegetative state. And the solution for those people seems obvious enough: Go harvest them for organs.

Life, in addition to certain other conditions, represents the possibility of your having value. That's all it is. It's a necessary condition, but it's not a sufficient one.

"Oh no, we got rid of a foetus, wherever will we get another of those?"

I suppose I'd be pro-choice in most cases. Pro-abortion in certain others. You discover the kid's going to be a drooling retard, perhaps the thing to do is recommend a quick end to the whole affair - save us all time and money.




Flash525

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#3 6 years ago

:lulz: I love that guy. His arguments are just perfectly executed.

computernerd;5605219First off, I'm assuming most of you understand the biology of pregnancy and etc. So I'm not looking for a scientific answer, I'm looking for a philosophical, personal answer.[/quote]How are babies made again? =p

computernerd;5605219But I would like to hear some other viewpoints. If you vote for one of the options you must give a clear argument for why you picked that option.[/QUOTE]I voted pro-choice, though alike Nemmerle, I would edge on the pro-abortion rule too.

Ultimately, in my opinion, life doesn't start until you are born. Only then (to some degree at least) do you have the ability to choose what you want to do, and where you'd like to go. Up to that point, you're essentially in a cage with a locked door, unless you cause problems, then some surgeon will come in and break some bars to help you out.

Nemmerle;5605279It's not really too much of an issue for me. I don't assign a high value to life of itself.
Not even your own?[QUOTE=Nemmerle;5605279]Yes, they're human. And? So's a person in a persistent vegetative state. And the solution for those people seems obvious enough: Go harvest them for organs.

This is a touchy argument. I think you'd need to define said person, cause if there was someone who, lets say for arguments sake had an accident and became a vegetable, what right would you, I, or anyone else have to say "okay, he / she is no use to anyone anymore, lets end their life regardless of their mental state (baring in mind they may be fully aware of what was going on) and harvest them for spare parts.

[QUOTE=Nemmerle;5605279]I suppose I'd be pro-choice in most cases. Pro-abortion in certain others. You discover the kid's going to be a drooling retard, perhaps the thing to do is recommend a quick end to the whole affair - save us all time and money.

I would happen to agree with this. If there is evidence during pregnancy that said foetus is going to develop problems, which would result in a physical or mental condition come birth, then you could question the logic (there's that word again) of going forward with the pregnancy.

For a conclusion though, if the foetus is to develop into a normal, everyday child, I think it should be up to the mother / parents to decide on whether such development should continue. Unless I'm mistaken, you can only have an abortion up to a certain point, after that, the foetus is too far developed to get rid of. I'd think, up to that point, said foetus isn't developed enough to be classified as traditional life.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

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#4 6 years ago

Aerilon;5605288Not even your own?[/QUOTE]

No, not even my own. In fact the potential for suicide has been a great comfort to me over the years. I look at my father and he goes to work, comes home, sits in front of the TV for five or six hours, goes to bed - rinse and repeat. He's outright admitted to me that he breaks the week down into blocks so that he can think of how little of it there is left.

If I thought I was going to live like him... and there's a very high danger of that, if for no other reason than I just don't have any major passions. I'd just do myself in now and skip the sixty years of total boredom on the way to the grave. If you’re going to wish your life away, why not be efficient about it?

Every time things look like they might be going bad, every time I think even for a moment that I might end up like him. I think - well hell, if it really fucks up I can always kill myself. And that certainty, that I won't end up like that whatever I do, let's me keep going.

Fuck, life’s innately valuable? Balls it is. I see a fate worse than death every afternoon I see the TV is on for the fourth hour in a row.

[QUOTE=Aerilon;5605288]This is a touchy argument. I think you'd need to define said person, cause if there was someone who, lets say for arguments sake had an accident and became a vegetable, what right would you, I, or anyone else have to say "okay, he / she is no use to anyone anymore, lets end their life regardless of their mental state (baring in mind they may be fully aware of what was going on) and harvest them for spare parts.

I find it improbable someone in a PVS is aware. But I don’t view it as a sticking point even if they are. If they’re fully aware of what’s going on and they’re just staring at the ceiling day in and day out, then it’s a mercy killing anyway. They’re a vegetable, one way or the other their life is over. What right do you have to keep them alive in that sort of condition?




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#5 6 years ago
Nemmerle;5605279It's not really too much of an issue for me. I don't assign a high value to life of itself. Yes, they're human. And? So's a person in a persistent vegetative state. And the solution for those people seems obvious enough: Go harvest them for organs.

I've actually thought of this argument myself, and tbh I've actually tried it when discussing this subject with other people. A few times people have seen the connection, though they certainly wouldn't admit it, but more often then not people say that that person still should be kept alive.

But another, similar argument: if a person suffers brain damage and effectively loses that which makes them an individual, what's the point? Are you going to re-teach them everything, if it's even possible?

Also, in regards to your dad's daily routine, I too have thought about that sort of thing. There are few things I fear as much as mediocrity of that type. That's not to say I wouldn't mind a daily routine and a sort of schedule to keep me on track with time and work, but just the same thing day in and day out would get old really fast.

That's also not to say that I'd hope for a volcano to spring up out of the ground or a drug-gang to start shooting people at random, but you get what I mean.


"I'd shush her zephyr." ~ Zephyr.



SeinfeldisKindaOk

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#6 6 years ago

Woops, I put pro-life instead of pro-choice. I can argue that side just to make things interesting...




Flash525

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#7 6 years ago
Nemmerle;5605295No, not even my own. In fact the potential for suicide has been a great comfort to me over the years. I look at my father and he goes to work, comes home, sits in front of the TV for five or six hours, goes to bed - rinse and repeat. He's outright admitted to me that he breaks the week down into blocks so that he can think of how little of it there is left.

computernerd;5605298Also, in regards to your dad's daily routine, I too have thought about that sort of thing. There are few things I fear as much as mediocrity of that type. That's not to say I wouldn't mind a daily routine and a sort of schedule to keep me on track with time and work, but just the same thing day in and day out would get old really fast. [/quote][/quote]Aren't most lives like that though? Most people, if not all, to an extent have a routine life that they go through on a daily (or weekly) basis. For most of us, that involves some form of work so that we may feed, cloth and enjoy ourselves when we're not working.

The thing is, life is all that we know. Once we're dead, that's it. We aren't going to know that we're no longer here, so we might as well make the most of it whilst we are, be that sitting down in front of a television set each and every night, getting drunk each and every night, or something something productive. Surely anything beats the alternative that is death?

[QUOTE=Nemmerle;5605295]If they’re fully aware of what’s going on and they’re just staring at the ceiling day in and day out, then it’s a mercy killing anyway.

Whilst you or I might see it that way, that person may not. They might value whatever sort of life they have over nothing, and nobody should have the right to take that away from them.

[QUOTE=computernerd;5605298]But another, similar argument: if a person suffers brain damage and effectively loses that which makes them an individual, what's the point? Are you going to re-teach them everything, if it's even possible?

This would depend on the person in question. If they're able to learn everything again, then why not give them a second chance at life? They're essentially a baby, having to learn everything from scratch. If they're brain dead to the point that they're comatosed with no expected awake, and they're only living due to machine support, then yeah, one could argue that their life has come to an end. That being said, there have been people that have woken up years after being unconscious, so again, it's an argumentative point.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

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#8 6 years ago

Aerilon;5605469Aren't most lives like that though? Most people, if not all, to an extent have a routine life that they go through on a daily (or weekly) basis. For most of us, that involves some form of work so that we may feed, clothe and enjoy ourselves when we're not working.

The thing is, life is all that we know. Once we're dead, that's it. We aren't going to know that we're no longer here, so we might as well make the most of it whilst we are, be that sitting down in front of a television set each and every night, getting drunk each and every night, or something something productive. Surely anything beats the alternative that is death?[/QUOTE]

Torture?

Edit: I mean it's just basically the go-to answer when someone goes 'Surely anything beats death?' How about I cut your eyes out, hook the pain centres of your brain up to a bunch of electrodes and just blast you with agony for the next sixty years? Wouldn't you want to die under those conditions?

Most people obviously have some reason to live, even if it's just fear of death. But their reasons are not my reasons. And even the idea that you need reasons naturally leads to the conclusion that in the absence of those reasons life alone would not be sufficient.

Aerilon;5605469Whilst you or I might see it that way, that person may not. They might value whatever sort of life they have over nothing, and nobody should have the right to take that away from them.[/QUOTE]

No-one has the right to force it on them either. Which is what you're doing when you keep them alive when they can't possibly consent to it.

[QUOTE=computernerd;5605298]I've actually thought of this argument myself, and tbh I've actually tried it when discussing this subject with other people. A few times people have seen the connection, though they certainly wouldn't admit it, but more often then not people say that that person still should be kept alive.

But another, similar argument: if a person suffers brain damage and effectively loses that which makes them an individual, what's the point? Are you going to re-teach them everything, if it's even possible?

It's not immediately clear what it would mean to stop being an individual. I suspect the level of brain damage required would kill you outright.

[QUOTE=computernerd;5605298]Also, in regards to your dad's daily routine, I too have thought about that sort of thing. There are few things I fear as much as mediocrity of that type. That's not to say I wouldn't mind a daily routine and a sort of schedule to keep me on track with time and work, but just the same thing day in and day out would get old really fast.

That's also not to say that I'd hope for a volcano to spring up out of the ground or a drug-gang to start shooting people at random, but you get what I mean.

Yeah. I know what you mean. Something creative, some puzzle you can solve - something like that right? Not just executing a procedure - tick box A if, tick box B if....




Biiviz

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#9 6 years ago

I've only skimmed through the thread, so excuse me for asking, but what exactly is the difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion?




Nemmerle Forum Mod

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#10 6 years ago

As I understand it:

Pro-abortion is supporting abortion as the preferable option to birth.

Pro-choice is taking the neutral stance that it's someone's choice whether to abort or give birth.

Pro-life is taking the position that the person should give birth.