Afghan Protests Over Quran Burning Turn Violent 12 replies

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Pethegreat VIP Member

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#1 6 years ago
Kabul, Afghanistan (CNN) -- A large crowd swarmed a military base and numerous demonstrations turned deadly Friday in Afghanistan, the fourth day of fallout from the burning of Qurans by NATO troops, officials said. One of the protests took place just outside a U.S. consulate. The developments came a day after U.S. President Barack Obama apologized for the incident, which he called an unintentional error. At least seven people were killed and 20 were wounded in protests Friday, mostly in Herat province, officials said. A spokesman for NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) said there were no reports of ISAF personnel wounded in the protests. Hundreds of people attacked an ISAF base in Pul-i-Khumri in northern Baghlan province, destroying a security fence and parts of the walls, according to an Afghan National Army official. Police interfered and started shooting into the air. One civilian was killed and 11 others were injured, the official said. ISAF had no immediate comment on that incident. The demonstrations in Herat took place in several different locations. One in Herat city near the U.S. consulate left three people dead and three wounded, said Mohayddin Noori, spokesman for Herat's governor. A witness said demonstrators were setting vehicles on fire, including police cars. In the Adraskan district of Herat province, one civilian and one police officer were killed, Noori said, also reporting a sixth death in the province. Three police officers were injured in Shindand district, Noori said. A spokesman at a local hospital said a total of nine injured people were brought in. In other parts of the country, demonstrations were generally peaceful Friday morning, Interior Ministry officials said. In a letter delivered to Afghan President Hamid Karzai on Thursday, Obama called the act "inadvertent," Karzai's office and National Security Council spokesman Tommy Vietor said. "We will take the appropriate steps to avoid any recurrence, including holding accountable those responsible," Obama said in the letter delivered by Ryan Crocker, the U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan. NATO troops incinerated Islamic religious material at Bagram Airfield earlier this week. A military official said the materials were removed from a detainee center's library because they had "extremist inscriptions" on them and there was "an appearance that these documents were being used to facilitate extremist communications." Muslims believe the Quran is the word of God, so holy that people should wash their hands before even touching the sacred book, which is why Quran burning incites such fury. Two American troops were killed Thursday by a person wearing an Afghan National Army uniform, a U.S. official said, asking not to be named discussing casualties. It is not clear if the troops were killed in revenge for the burning of Qurans, but the attack occurred at a base while a demonstration was taking place outside, a local official said.

The short version is that someone mistakenly burned several Qurans at a disposal pit for sensitive documents. An Afghan worker noticed this and removed the books before they were too badly damaged. Word got out about this and protests started. NATO apologized and Obama apologized for the mistake. The protests are now in their 4th day and over a dozen people have been killed.

Evens like this have happened before. A Florida pastor burned a Quran last year which led to protests that killed 12 people. I would like to think that these protests are small isolated incidents. However there have been multiple large protests around the country. So far only one imam has stepped up to denounce the protests and tell people to cool it over the burning of a book. He said that he was more concerned with people getting killed than with some paper getting burned.

Incidents like this are not helping the public's opinion of Muslims. Assuming the comments are genuine the American people are starting to view the Afghans as savages rather than people who got dealt a bad hand in life. I hate to say it, but the American people may be right about this one.




Asheekay

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#2 6 years ago

I'm only left to wonder if a crowd spoke against holocaust in germany and then riots followed, would the crowd hold the same status as these ones?




Commissar MercZ

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#3 6 years ago

I think there's probably the added problem of already existing tensions between these Afghani's towards the NATO forces. This kind of behavior is more something like like making a dangerous fire even worse, I guess. I remember an interview somewhere with one of the guys (in his 40s or 50s) remarking something like 'this isn't just about insults towards our religion, but their disrespect towards us and the murders of our sons'.

Simply put relations between the people and US/NATO has never been too warm to begin with.




Crazy Wolf VIP Member

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#4 6 years ago
Asheekay;5614873I'm only left to wonder if a crowd spoke against holocaust in germany and then riots followed, would the crowd hold the same status as these ones?

Can you rephrase this? Your question isn't really clear.




Asheekay

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#5 6 years ago

Nothing. Forget it. Just a remark about double standards of religious and political laws around the world.

Nothing new. Has always been the same.




MrFancypants Forum Admin

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#6 6 years ago

That there are lots of fundamentalists in Afghanistan doesn't really come as a surprise. What does surprise me is that any NATO soldiers would be stupid enough to burn those books.

As for the remarks about the Afghanis being savages - after living for several decades in a failed state it is hardly surprising that they don't react the same way as we would. Even so, if the Chinese invaded the US and started burning US flags there'd be riots as well.

Anyway, I don't think the Afghanistan mission can be successfully completed without violating some of the rights we try to teach to those people. A massive re-education campaign would be required to get rid of the fundamentalist ideology. Not necessarily a removal of Islam, but at least the spreading of a version of Islam that is compatible with western values.

Asheekey I'm only left to wonder if a crowd spoke against holocaust in germany and then riots followed, would the crowd hold the same status as these ones?

No? You probably mean crowds who speak out in favour of holocaust or holocaust-denial. The answer would still be no though. The crowd (neonazis, antisemites or whomever you mean) might face criminal persectuion and would be considered as utterly stupid, but there would be no riots.




Asheekay

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#7 6 years ago
MrFancypantsThe crowd (neonazis, antisemites or whomever you mean) might face criminal persectuion and would be considered as utterly stupid, but there would be no riots.

The crowd WOULD face criminal persecution and would spend some time in prison or be heavily fined. And thats the reason why there would be no riots. Did the nato soldiers face similar legal persecution in afghanistan? No. Would they appear in the afghani courts if summoned, to face the lawsuits? No.

So what legal and non-offensive means do you suggest to resolve the issue?

As for the afghani people being savages and extremists. 100% agreed. Being a pakistani, I have some insight about those people. They do indeed lack compassion, sensibility and their first instincts to resolve any matter of dispute is to use force.

There was this worst earthquake of the history of pakistan in 2005. While all ngos, religious and political parties were trying their best to help the victims and save those buried in debris, there was this afghani, visiting every earthquake-stricken house in search of dead bodies and seriously wounded people, chopping off their ears, wrists and fingers for the jewelry and watches they were wearing. He was caught red handed, with a bag full of human limbs. Some people tried to convince others to hand him over to the law enforcement authorities but the angry mob killed him.

No riots followed.




MrFancypants Forum Admin

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#8 6 years ago

Asheekay;5615421The crowd WOULD face criminal persecution and would spend some time in prison or be heavily fined. And thats the reason why there would be no riots. Did the nato soldiers face similar legal persecution in afghanistan? No. Would they appear in the afghani courts if summoned, to face the lawsuits? No.

So what legal and non-offensive means do you suggest to resolve the issue?

As for the afghani people being savages and extremists. 100% agreed. Being a pakistani, I have some insight about those people. They do indeed lack compassion, sensibility and their first instincts to resolve any matter of dispute is to use force.

There was this worst earthquake of the history of pakistan in 2005. While all ngos, religious and political parties were trying their best to help the victims and save those buried in debris, there was this afghani, visiting every earthquake-stricken house in search of dead bodies and seriously wounded people, chopping off their ears, wrists and fingers for the jewelry and watches they were wearing. He was caught red handed, with a bag full of human limbs. Some people tried to convince others to hand him over to the law enforcement authorities but the angry mob killed him.

No riots followed.

There would be no riots regardless of the criminal persecution. Criminal persecution in Germany takes many months or even years. Riots are spur of the moment events. Even if the local neo-nazis go around and kill foreigners there are no riots, as recent events have shown.

Also, in most Islamic states you do face persecution for breaking religious laws. Afghanistan is slightly different due to the fact that NATO is paying for the show, hence the Afghanis have to compromise. But if they had their way the offenders would be dead by now.

Anyway, the comparison between endorsing genocide and (in this case) accidentally burning a religious book is nonsentical.

As for what I suggest to resolve the situation - there are no measures which instantly cure religious fundamentalism. It'll take at the very least a stable state, some moderate wealth and education over several decades to cure those poor suckers. As for the savages - this one case of a savage going around and collecting limbs doesn't really disprove the arguments about what influence poverty has on behavior. If you look at the motivation of that guy you can actually see that his violence was motivated by greed and not by cultural differences, so if anything you are proving my point with that example.




NuclearTurboPopeXVII

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#9 6 years ago

Pethegreat;5614842 Incidents like this are not helping the public's opinion of Muslims.[/QUOTE]

29% of the world's population is Muslim(!)... Referring to "Muslims" in general without qualification strikes me as slightly racist.

Pethegreat;5614842Assuming the comments are genuine the American people are starting to view the Afghans as savages rather than people who got dealt a bad hand in life.[/QUOTE]

Those two options aren't mutually exclusive. Assuming being a "savage" has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with their upbringing and the utter failure of a society in which they live, of course.

Pethegreat;5614842I hate to say it, but the American people may be right about this one.[/QUOTE]

One thing I've learned in life is.. the American people can be counted on to be 180 degrees out of phase with reality at ALL times. XD

MrFancypants;5615239That there are lots of fundamentalists in Afghanistan doesn't really come as a surprise. What does surprise me is that any NATO soldiers would be stupid enough to burn those books.[/QUOTE]

I'd put them on eBay. "Extremist communications" will be cool pieces of history to have sometime in the future when Islam starts it's inevitable decline.

[QUOTE=MrFancypants;5615239]As for the remarks about the Afghanis being savages - after living for several decades in a failed state it is hardly surprising that they don't react the same way as we would.

More importantly, it's a failed church-state. That's the part of the equation that turns a normal failed state (post-soviet russia) into a real hellhole.

[QUOTE=MrFancypants;5615239]Even so, if the Chinese invaded the US and started burning US flags there'd be riots as well.

...And that's definitely a BAD thing. The correct response to someone burning an american flag is "Oh really? That's cool. Don't set off the sprinkler system please.", and not "OMG NOOO WHAT WILL I SAY THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE TO EACH MORNING SO I CAN BE A PATRIOT??" :rofl:

[QUOTE=MrFancypants;5615239]Anyway, I don't think the Afghanistan mission can be successfully completed without violating some of the rights we try to teach to those people.

If you are correct, then that's not a mission worth completing. That sort of thinking is usually simplified down to "the end justifies the means". It appeals to our Machiavellian side... Again, NOT a GOOD thing!

[QUOTE=MrFancypants;5615239]A massive re-education campaign would be required to get rid of the fundamentalist ideology. Not necessarily a removal of Islam, but at least the spreading of a version of Islam that is compatible with western values.

One does not simply... roll out a new version of a religion and force it's adoption. Especially in a country surrounded by other Muslim nations over which you have no control.




MrFancypants Forum Admin

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#10 6 years ago
NuclearTurboPopeXVII More importantly, it's a failed church-state. That's the part of the equation that turns a normal failed state (post-soviet russia) into a real hellhole.

I think the Soviets tried to get rid of anything resembling religion in the states they controlled. And that worked relatively well for them - many former Soviet republics are quite stable nowadays due to Soviet strategy, which included incerasing education levels of the local population.

If you are correct, then that's not a mission worth completing. That sort of thinking is usually simplified down to "the end justifies the means". It appeals to our Machiavellian side... Again, NOT a GOOD thing!

One does not simply... roll out a new version of a religion and force it's adoption. Especially in a country surrounded by other Muslim nations over which you have no control.

I'm not claiming that it would be ethically correct, but whether what we are doing now is ethically correct seems questionable.

As for whether it is feasible - reeducation did work quite well after WW2. In Germany and Japan you had populations of extremely radical nationalists, nowadays both states are quite peaceful. Of course that wasn't just the result of reeducation but also the effect of a devastating war.




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