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Granyaski VIP Member

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#1 8 years ago

Don't know if you guys heard , it's a little late but: BBC News - Bush defends his controversial White House policies

Pretty much George Bush defends the use of water boarding saying it is necessary to stop terrorism.

Your thoughts?




jackripped

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2nd December 2009

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#2 8 years ago

My thoughts are its probably better than outright shooting them, but not a very nice thing to do to any human, but then l sort of miss Bush, for the silly bugger he was, he was awful funny at times, ''l believe that humans and fish can co-exist'' l mean you couldn't write funner shit than some of the speeches he made.And he definitely had a sense of humor, when the guy tossed a shoe at him, almost got him too, he laughed, and his laugh looked pretty genuine, l didn't like him much as a president, but sheesh l miss his comedy stand up shows, hahaha. l mean check it out, how can you hate him, you just cant...If our children learnedededed. YouTube - George Bush Speech Mistakes fool me once, errrrrm, shame on you, fooled man cant get fooled again, GOD he was class !




Nemmerle Forum Mod

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#3 8 years ago

[INDENT]"We do debriefings because debriefings are the nature of our business: to get information, and we do all that, and we do it in a way that does not involve torture because torture is counter-productive."

- Porter Goss, CIA Director September 24, 2004 – May 5, 2006[/INDENT]

Historically speaking torture as an instrument of policy has been used for one reason and one reason only: To illicit false confessions. As an instrument used by individuals - most commonly because for certain pathological personalities or in certain situations it's fun to hurt people.

Indeed the training provided to the thugs who did this sort of thing in the use of torture was derived from a study by a sociologist working for the US Airforce, Albert D. Biderman. The study concerned American prisoners returning from North Korea and was entitled, “Communist Attempts to Elicit False Confessions From Air Force Prisoners of War.” Techniques were directly copied from this study with nothing but the titles altered.

Is pain effective in getting people to talk? Yes. But it will get them to talk about anything, say anything. There are ways of checking what they say, but generally they imply a level of intelligence that would render the torture superfluous anyway.

We can all come up with ticking bomb scenarios - which I doubt happen with any sort of regularity - but that's a decision that should be made by a couple of people in a tilled room and never taken to the level of government. It's justified as a hail Mary pass but you can't enshrine it in general policy as an accepted tool.




Schofield VIP Member

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#4 8 years ago

Anyone will confess to anything (eventually) while being tortured, the only one who will ever know the entire story is the one being interrogated.




NiteStryker

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#5 8 years ago

I dont have a problem with waterboarding. It got people to talk, didnt it?




Nemmerle Forum Mod

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#6 8 years ago

I don't think it did actually, no.




Granyaski VIP Member

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#7 8 years ago
Nemmerle;5424035I don't think it did actually, no.

Aparently it did, it got some of the terrorists who helped plan 9/11 to talk. So British media says.




MrFancypants Forum Admin

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#8 8 years ago
Granyaski;5424580Aparently it did, it got some of the terrorists who helped plan 9/11 to talk. So British media says.

I remember that a high-ranking US official directly involved in this said that torture turned out to be contra-productive. Can't remember who it was though.

Whether it leads to results is irrelevant anyway. Let's say that, for some reason, slowly slicing and dicing all your relatives would lead to some ill-define positive result (like information that could possibly save other people). Would you agree that it is therefore justified to slice and dice your relatives?

One of the more disturbing things about western societies, the US in particular, is the enormous amount of hypocrisy and subliminal racism. If a politician talks about guns or healthcare everyone quotes some ammendments to the constitution or starts a tea-party movement, but if we're talking about denying the most fundamental rights - the stuff written at the very top of that constitution - to Arabs noone cares.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

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#9 8 years ago
Granyaski;5424580Aparently it did, it got some of the terrorists who helped plan 9/11 to talk. So British media says.

What you mean that Abu Z guy? Apparently all the worthwhile info he gave up came from before they started torturing him. After which they got loads of false confession that sent people scurrying all over the place - as you'd expect from someone saying anything to make you stop.




Keyser_Soze

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#10 8 years ago

terrorism can not be stopped, only contained. Petraeus has said it, Sir David Richards has said it. all we can do is protect our nations through security. all that can defeat an ideology is another ideology, and i don't see an ideology shifting radical islam, it's possibly the most stubborn ideology on earth. radical islam, that is.