Can we call them terrorists yet? 40 replies

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Joe Bonham

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#31 13 years ago

[quote=Locomotor;3359335]I blame the US not for committing genocide and terrorism (not in this case at least), but for supprting those that did (do). Like I said: "Logic follows: if A supports B, and B commits C, then A supports C."

Well, my household is below the poverty line, but I know what you mean. I misread earlier. :)

Mine used to be, and I know a family that still is. But by global standards, both you and them are extremely wealthy.

I condemn them both, then. Had you read (which you now have), you'd know that I am upset because thousands of normal, innocent people - trade unionists, human rights activists, etc - were/are being killed. The insurgancies are another issue.

I've already answered this - several times. Its their equivalent of the Phoenix Program. Every group, state or not, has a program equivalent of this. To eliminate political allies of your enemy.

Not that. I mean that those I have been talking about do not constitute "disorder." Drug cartels (you do know that the CIA is a huge drug pusher, don't you? Even Clinton admitted that.)

The smart thing to do would be to legalize certain narcotics. That might break the back of the cartels. Though I doubt that's going to happen any time soon unfortunately.

and crap like that do need to be dealt with. What I have a problem is when our government uses legitimate disorder to hide the fact that they're backing the slaughter of thousands of innocent people.

Its not "hidden". Both sides have killed thousands. They're making no secret of it. When you're an army commander in Latin America, you really don't give a crap about what "gringos" think of your operation.

Okay, let's stop insulting eachother. :)

Good idea.:)

I trust you understand my meaning, though? Today we call terrorists what we called freedom fighters only a couple decades ago. Anyone can be a terrorist (Food Not Bombs, for instance), so long as the United States government calls them one. That's how pretexts work.

Quite simple really. Heraclitus (535-475 bc) dictated that the world is an huge process of rapid change. The dog you see now was a puppy, and will become an old wreck, and then die.

Principle applies here. Yesterday's ally is today's enemy, and who knows what he will be tomorrow.

That's why congress allowed Bush to invade Iraq, because, all of a sudden, this fumbling, weak, exhausted little country thousands of miles away becomes the "greatest threat to freedom and democracy" we've ever faced.

WMDs make size irrelevant. Which is exactly what certain individuals like Kim Jong are counting on.

It's called propaganda.

Its called bad intelligence. And its hardly the first time. The Zimmerman note that got us into WWI turned out to be a hoax cooked up by British intelligence to sucker us into the war.

Maybe, maybe not. In this case however, that's the opposite of reality.

How so? They've kept Columbia more or less in one piece. Do you've a point? Again, saying "this is the way it is, deal with it" is not an argument. All I am doing here is condemning what is going on. You should try it. Sounds like a copout to me, but okay. Okay, so now what? I don't condone it, you do?

I disagree. Self-interest maybe, greed no. It's all about what you value: and not everyone values money and fame (me for instance :)). I'd suggest Ayn Rand's The Virtue of Selfishness here, but I hate her. :) Either way, you kinda dodged my point: power corrupts the best, as Bakunin said, and the US government was not concerned with the "disorder," they were concerned with protecting business interests.

Funny - I think you "dodged my point". No human action ever had just one motivation. Its a mistake to blame everything on some big corporate boogeyman. The corporate boogeyman concoction is just as silly as the "terrorist boogeyman".

No war is the result of impulsiveness.

What are you talking about? Wars are started impulsively all the time. Oh I see - that's just a cover up. All wars from the dawn of time were really started by corporate conspiracies.;)

It was a massive war fought over the kidnapping of a single woman.

Exactly. Paris broke the sacred host-guest relationship, stole Menelaus's wife, and the other Greek leaders upheld their oath they had made to him on his wedding day (That was Oddyseus's brainchild, he probably regretted it every minute of that 10 years :lol: ) - that's the whole point of the story. You can see how the Hollywood lefties are incapable of understanding that. The troy movies always portray the war as some act of corporate greed (As if Greek Dark Age Warriors would have even comprehended that:rolleyes: ), even though it was nothing of the sort.

Fuck "honor": a whole lot of people died.

So you hold the belief that all cultures share your values? Hmm, that's the whole point of your thread I guess.

I'm an adult. :cool:

I didn't intend it offensively (After all I'm about the same age as you, so any term I use would apply to me as well;) ) - but very well - "American man..."

Depends on how you define safe, I suppose.

Its all relative. Nothing is truly safe. Israel is a firm ally and Pakistan's current ruler is also an ally (though he is in a somewhat precarious position...).

Well, that's too bad.

How so? Spitting in a needed ally's face simply because you don't agree with the ideology behind his regime is pretty foolish.

Hmm? I'm still talking about Colombia here.

Then why did you bring up the quote on North Korea?




Locomotor

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#32 13 years ago
MAIts their equivalent of the Phoenix Program. Every group, state or not, has a program equivalent of this. To eliminate political allies of your enemy.

Right: I'm saying it's bad. And I'm saying that the US supports it is bad. That's it.

WMDs make size irrelevant.

Yeah, well, that was part of the pretext. ;)

Its called bad intelligence.

Heh. You say tomato, I say tomato.

They've kept Columbia more or less in one piece.

The people of Cambodia have two choices? Fascism, or anarchy? I think there's a happy medium between the two.

corporate boogeyman

Riiiiiiiiight. Well, the history is there. Make your own judgements, I suppose.

conspiracies

Oh, for God's sake don't start throwing this word around. :uhoh:

Hmm, that's the whole point of your thread I guess.

Protecting profits by assassinating civilians en masse is... I dunno. Please to explain. :)

Spitting in a needed ally's face simply because you don't agree with the ideology behind his regime is pretty foolish.

Needed? You mean: oil and cheap labor, correct?




Joe Bonham

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#33 13 years ago
Locomotor;3365629Right: I'm saying it's bad. And I'm saying that the US supports it is bad. That's it.

You know - you could save a lot of time by just saying The Third World is bad and be done with it. Though I think pretty much everyone already knows that.;) Yeah, well, that was part of the pretext. ;)

Heh. You say tomato, I say tomato.

Propaganda =/= Wrong intelligence

The people of Cambodia have two choices? Fascism, or anarchy? I think there's a happy medium between the two.

In a sane world, there's a happy median between the two. However, South America doesn't quite meet the requirements for that.

Riiiiiiiiight. Well, the history is there. Make your own judgements, I suppose.

Just like there's history for the Zionist takeover.

Protecting profits by assassinating civilians en masse is... I dunno. Please to explain. :) Needed? You mean: oil and cheap labor, correct?

Well, Like I've already tried to explain, you can't assign just one black and white motive to everything.




Locomotor

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#34 13 years ago
MAPropaganda =/= Wrong intelligence

"Wrong intelligence" = Fraud, Lies, $$$. You have read the Downing Street Memo, correct? Of course, that's just a one-in-a-million example of how pretexts are used. If you're interested, I'd be happy to point out some more.

In a sane world, there's a happy median between the two.

I still fail to see how not murdering thousands of human rights activists, trade unionists, and leftist ideologues would lead to anarchy. Somehow you think it's necessary in order to prevent a complete breakdown, and therefore it's justified.

Just like there's history for the Zionist takeover.

I mean real history. To compare the history corporate skulldrudgery to Zionist conspiracy theories is simply idiotic. There are plenty of books I'd be happy to point you to, if you're interested.

Well, Like I've already tried to explain, you can't assign just one black and white motive to everything.

Then what exactly did you mean by "needed ally?" We don't need Colombia as an ally, we need their resources. Behold: this thread.




Joe Bonham

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#35 13 years ago
Locomotor;3366597"Wrong intelligence" = Fraud, Lies, $$$.

Wrong. Fraudulent intel, ect. (x) < Wrong intelligence (y). In other words, x is a form of y. So if you have x you must have y. But having y doesn't mean you must have x. And in the end, it really doesn't matter how exactly the intelligence was screwed up, because the damage has already been done. Just like the origin of the Zimmerman Note became irrelevant - we were already in the war.

I still fail to see how not murdering thousands of human rights activists, trade unionists, and leftist ideologues would lead to anarchy.

That's how they fight their wars. They fight the war, and that kind of thing will inevitably happen. They also use torture, reprisals, and many other methods we find quite barbaric.

Somehow you think it's necessary in order to prevent a complete breakdown, and therefore it's justified.

Yes, the war (And the bad side effects that accompany the war, like these killings) is necessary to prevent a complete breakdown.

I mean real history. To compare the history corporate skulldrudgery to Zionist conspiracy theories is simply idiotic. There are plenty of books I'd be happy to point you to, if you're interested.

There are plenty of books on Zionists I could show you. ;) Of course corporations exist and have influence on their nations, but blaming every foreign war and disaster on them is "simply idiotic".

Then what exactly did you mean by "needed ally?" We don't need Colombia as an ally, we need their resources. Behold: this thread.

We need them as an ally, which has much to do with our needing their resources. And if they are giving us needed materials, we are obliged to help them do it. What you propose is hypocrisy I'm afraid. Benefitting from these wars without doing anything to fight them. Since virtually all of the exporters of goods we use are fighting a war of some sort, we couldn't shut ourselves from it without completely isolating ourselves.




Locomotor

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#36 13 years ago
MAWrong. Fraudulent intel, ect. (x) < Wrong intelligence (y). In other words, x is a form of y. So if you have x you must have y. But having y doesn't mean you must have x.

That wasn't my point. I mean: that there was "bad" intelligence is the lie. It was made up. It wasn't merely "bad," it was deliberately misleading! And we were all duped. :(

Just like the origin of the Zimmerman Note became irrelevant - we were already in the war.

How convenient. :rolleyes:

They also use torture, reprisals, and many other methods we find quite barbaric.

We do those things too, you know.

(And the bad side effects that accompany the war, like these killings)

I still fail to see why "these killings" are necessary. Just because "that's the way they fight" doesn't answer my question. My question: why are we supporting these killings? They aren't necessary, and that we are supporting them is appalling. So?

blaming every foreign war

I haven't done that. I deal with our foreign policy on a situation-by-situation basis. Most have invloved $$$, and this action specifically did. Quit ignoring the history that does exist.

Benefitting from these wars without doing anything to fight them.

I don't want there resources, especially considering the fact that it is because we need their resources that this situation exists in the first place. These "Marxist guerillas," human rights activists, trade unionists, etc, would not exist if it weren't for American business investment in Colombia. "Globalization" created this situation.




Joe Bonham

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#37 13 years ago
Locomotor;3366658That wasn't my point. I mean: that there was "bad" intelligence is the lie. It was made up. It wasn't merely "bad," it was deliberately misleading! And we were all duped. :(

That's the definition of bad intelligence. You gather intelligence through word of ear, putting money in the right pockets, torture... somebody lied. Be it someone on the ground, or one of the top brass trying to make himself look good.

How convenient. :rolleyes:

Oh come on. What did you expect Wilson and company to do? Oops, it was just a mistake - the Brits made it all up, let's go home!

Besides, the failure of the current war was caused by mismanagement, not the bad intelligence.

We do those things too, you know.

Wrong. We just sit on our cozy livingroom chairs and condemn people who do. The people who use those barbaric methods are the people forced to. The "civilized man" is simply the man who has never been in a tough situation, and is too naive to imagine one.

I still fail to see why "these killings" are necessary. Just because "that's the way they fight" doesn't answer my question. My question: why are we supporting these killings? They aren't necessary, and that we are supporting them is appalling. So?

The war itself is necessary. Unfortunately, these practices are part of the package deal. You can't have the war without the practices.

I haven't done that. I deal with our foreign policy on a situation-by-situation basis. Most have invloved $$$, and this action specifically did.

That's what I've spent the last 5 posts trying to tell you - money is only one factor in a complex situation.

Quit ignoring the history that does exist.

Quit twisting it to suit your ideology.

I don't want there resources

Nobody asked you. And funny - you insist you don't want these resources, yet you use them every day. The car your family drives in was manufactured from metal mined with slave labor (You heard me right: unpaid forced labor) in South America, perhaps even the fuel it uses comes from there as well. The cheap immigrant laborers your local economy depends on are our "brothers in the South", many of the goods you take for granted come from there too. The dope some of your neighbors smoke and sniff was grown in Latin America. Even a large portion of the food sitting on your table originated somewhere in Latin America. Now of course we could quit. But we would still have to get all that stuff from somewhere - which would mean fighting equally nasty wars. Its easy to say you don't need something when you don't know what its like to live without it.

especially considering the fact that it is because we need their resources that this situation exists in the first place. These "Marxist guerillas," human rights activists, trade unionists, etc, would not exist if it weren't for American business investment in Colombia. "Globalization" created this situation.

Right. Everybody knows there were never revolts against harsh regimes until evil white man came into the region.:rolleyes: Please. Totalitarian regimes, political intrigue, wars, and mass killings have been going on in that continent for millenia.




Locomotor

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#38 13 years ago
MAor one of the top brass trying to make himself look good

Or a few elitist civilians in the White House and Pentagon, looking for another false pretext, to launch another war for profit, based on that pretext. Again: tomato/tomato.

Besides, the failure of the current war was caused by mismanagement, not the bad intelligence.

I'd say our leaders are right on schedule. Long-term chaos = justification for long-term presence. But let's not kid ourselves, we are never leaving Iraq, and we were never meant to. Our leader's have had their eyes on the prize since the late nineties, and there's little reason to think they'd give it up now, now that we're already there.

You can't have the war without the practices.

And why couldn't the US government put pressure on the Colombian one to stop these atrocities? Because: it might mean the difference between this amount of $$$ and that amount of $$$. Well, that's bullshit, and the people in Colombia trying to make a difference deserve better than this, and better than your lame excuses.

money is only one factor in a complex situation

Then again, please tell me what the hell the American government's business in Colombia is.

Its easy to say you don't need something when you don't know what its like to live without it.

Do you've a point here? Are you saying that because we get their resources, what took (and takes) place in Colombia is justified?

Everybody knows there were never revolts against harsh regimes until evil white man came into the region.

I am dealing with this issue specifically. Quit bullshitting around everything I say. If you cannot come up with anything resembling an actual response, please quit posting.




Joe Bonham

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#39 13 years ago
Locomotor;3367639Or a few elitist civilians in the White House and Pentagon, looking for another false pretext, to launch another war for profit, based on that pretext. Again: tomato/tomato. I'd say our leaders are right on schedule. Long-term chaos = justification for long-term presence. But let's not kid ourselves, we are never leaving Iraq, and we were never meant to. Our leader's have had their eyes on the prize since the late nineties, and there's little reason to think they'd give it up now, now that we're already there.

If you don't mind I'll stop responding to the statement about the villainous corporate-nazi conspiracy in Iraq, because its off topic. However, you're free to create a different thread for it.:)

And why couldn't the US government put pressure on the Colombian one to stop these atrocities?

Because they're the ones doing the fighting and dying. Now of course we could just send our own guys in and do it "the right way", but then we'd be doing the fighting and dying - not to mention the Columbians would be royally pissed off at our interference. But we just send them the dough and the indirect help, and they're content with their little wars and slave labor. The thing we're doing that IS pissing them off however is our silly War on Drugs that is giving those drug cartels a hayday.

and the people in Colombia trying to make a difference deserve better than this,

I'll send flowers.

Then again, please tell me what the hell the American government's business in Colombia is.

Answered your own question. They're doing us a favor, so we return the favor. Ever watch that scene from Miami Vice, when Crockett and Tubbs meet the banker in cahoots with the Columbians?

Our brothers in the South owe us a lot of money, and they're not going to pay us back by weaving baskets

I believe the word for it is realpolitic.

Do you've a point here? Are you saying that because we get their resources, what took (and takes) place in Colombia is justified?

Is it justified is the wrong question; does it work? Yes.

I am dealing with this issue specifically.

Okay then, I'll make my sarcastic reply to that silly statement specifically.;) Right, everybody knows nobody revolted against the harsh regime in Columbia until American business interests came in. Stop bullshitting about the "corporate conspiracy". The Columbian government would still kill people, and there would still be a Marxist guerrilla movement, whether or not there were Americans in the picture. The only difference is - we're influencing who wins.:)




Locomotor

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#40 13 years ago
MAThe thing we're doing that IS pissing them off however is our silly War on Drugs that is giving those drug cartels a hayday.

The War on Drugs was the perfect cover for the CIA to tunnel drugs into the US themselves!

I'll send flowers.

:(

Answered your own question.

So long as you acknowledge the business interests, I'm content with ending this discussion right now. :)

realpolitic

Yuck. You know my stance on Machiavellian Realism, so I'll leave it at that.

Is it justified is the wrong question; does it work? Yes.

Realpolitik in a nutshell. I don't think it should be that simple. Oh well, to each his own I suppose. Hopefully you'll develope a conscience sometime soon. You've completely abandoned morality and humanity here, you know. That's part of realism you can't escape.

Right, everybody knows nobody revolted against the harsh regime in Columbia until American business interests came in... The Columbian government would still kill people, and there would still be a Marxist guerrilla movement, whether or not there were Americans in the picture.

That doesn't excuse these atrocities.

Stop bullshitting about the "corporate conspiracy"

There are business interests at work whether or not you acknowledge it or not. You have, so I'm not exactly sure where this is coming from.

The United States government has backed fascist paramilitary forces in the slaugher of thousands of innocent people to protect access to the resources of Colombia. You can condone it all you want, I don't care, but that's the reality.