Conscription 86 replies

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Pethegreat VIP Member

Lord of the Peach

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19th April 2004

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#1 10 years ago

In times of war the draft is used to raise the manpower needed to win wars. Recent history has shown that the draft has dwindling support among the people who the draft targets. The idea of bringing back the draft in the US has been proposed as a way to spread the burden of war over all the classes, not just the poor. Proponents of the draft say that the draft will turn today's youth into productive members of society while solving the military's manpower problems. Opponents say that the draft oversteps the limits of the government, and that it hampers young people's choices for their future.

My views on it are never bring the draft or any public service back. Get rid of the selective service system. If a war is just then you will have no need for a draft. Let young people make their own decisions about their future. Thankfully the idea of bringing the draft back is political suicide.

If the draft would come back, you can bet I would be in Canada less than 24 hours after they announced the draft. This country has screwed me over enough as it is. Why should I give my life for it? In the end all that matters is that I am alive. I could care less if the US wins the war.

I have not seen this debate in quite a while. This should make things interesting for a few days.




Crazy Wolf VIP Member

Snipes With Artillery

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22nd March 2005

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#2 10 years ago

"If a war is just then you have no need for a draft?" Frankly, that's just wrong. WWII wasn't all-volunteers.

I don't like the wars that we fight today, but I'm not going to complain about the draft because of it, I'm going to complain about the wars we fight today.

The draft is a way to get enough troops to fight a war. If in WWII we relied on a volunteer military, the Pacific would be speaking Japanese (and Europe would most likely be speaking Russian; assuming Stalin just took German occupied lands, that'd be all the way to the English Channel, if he took the fight to all Fascist countries, it'd be all the way to Gibraltar.)

We need to be able to call on our citizens to serve their country, although I think that it should be used mainly in crises that threaten to destroy our country. Although some sort of service requirement sounds like it would be a good plan, it seems to work well for the countries that offer it. Of course, that means offering many alternatives to military work, but that's not too hard. Would you flee to Canada once a draft was announced, or once your number was called, Pethe?




UNDIESRULES

Waffle-Sprocket is broke

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24th November 2003

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#3 10 years ago

I think the idea of a draft is good for a number of reasons, instilling discipline in some people, and actually getting them working and not claiming dole.

I voted no though, i am in the army and 1 volunteer is worth ten pressed men, if he doesnt want to be there he may as well not be.




Huffardo

Arrrr!

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29th November 2003

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#4 10 years ago

I voted yes for reasons that should be rather obvious if you look at my location. Conscription seems to work just fine, and I'd rather see a military to consist of normal people from all social classes who have no other reason to fight than defending their country, waging war against some innocent enemy is quite a bit more difficult with people that think for themselves and don't want to be there than with mercenaries that only care about their paycheck. When everyone back home knows somebody who could die gathering public support for illegal invasions is also more challenging, of course it is still not impossible, but the leaders will have to think twice about what they say the war is for, oil or alleged WMDs are not something likely to work...

As for getting motivated troops when it is really needed, I doubt that is an issue when the Russians, Americans or whatever other enemies known for their brutality are amassing at the border. So far I've met only extremely few people who would rather try to escape to Sweden and have their homes invaded than fight, and since all of those did choose civil service that shouldn't be too much of an issue, their value as forced cannon fodder would be quite limited anyway.

Undiesrules has some good points too, e.g. half a year spent with military discipline and routine is usually enough to get even the worst bums to get themselves together. The career criminals are probably likely to continue whatever crimes they did before, but at least they got a chance to think about their choice of life in a place different from (and worse than) prison and are kept away from the streets for a while.

Another thing that perhaps isn't as obvious is all the physical problems that are recognized during service, things that might otherwise take a long time to be treated often come up when forced through heavy physical activities in harsh conditions with better than normal access to health services. The earlier these problems are taken care of the better, although some of them might of course not have been a problem in many decades had the unusual conditions not been forced, but there is drawbacks to everything.

You should also not ignore the national health impact of months of heavy exercise, most may not keep up exercising at the same level afterwards, but at least they got the knowledge to do so if they want to and a much better starting point than before training.

Something of perhaps less meaning is the feeling of belonging it gets to every soul, no matter what bum you are in civilian life that does not matter when everyone dresses the same, eats the same and does the same stuff, unless you are one of the few true jerks that just don't can't live without picking on people. Might even get friends for life.




Karst

I chose an eternity of this

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6th January 2005

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#5 10 years ago

I believe it would only be the acceptable if the youth has the choice of working for a charitable organization of some sort as an alternative, as is the case in Germany or Austria. It's a great opportunity to get some life experience and a bit of money in your pocket at a young age. However, I don't believe in the necessity of a military at all. The sad truth is, there are only two reasons why someone here would pick military service above civil service: because it's three months shorter, or because they think firing a gun is "cool". It's always the crude and simple minded that choose that option, and they never learn anything from it (apart from the military drill). Civil service however is usually a valuable experience, so I think it's a good idea. Oh, and to add to that, I think women should do it too.




Ryette

suburban baroness of bud

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19th April 2005

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#6 10 years ago

Definitely not. I am not blind to the numerous benefits of a draft, but I can't shake the feeling that it's a crime against humanity to force one man to kill another man, especially for a cause he doesn't believe in.

UNDIESRULES is also correct in that a man who volunteers for service is infinitely more effective than a man who is there completely against his will.

Then again, I'm against war itself in almost every situation.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

Voice of joy and sunshine

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26th May 2003

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#7 10 years ago

If England had the draft I'd be out shooting people in Iraq or Afghanistan right now compelled by a cause I neither believe in nor truly support. Why should I kill for your beliefs?




Huffardo

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29th November 2003

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#8 10 years ago

Karst;4494703I believe it would only be the acceptable if the youth has the choice of working for a charitable organization of some sort as an alternative, as is the case in Germany or Austria.[/QUOTE] I definitely agree on that, there has to be an alternative for those who are too unsuitable for armed service. Why has it to be a charity though? Here you can work in mostly any field, from computer service to caring for the elderly, but I can't remember hearing about anyone working for a charity, that might be because the employer has to pay for your apartment if you do civil service.

Karst;4494703It's a great opportunity to get some life experience and a bit of money in your pocket at a young age.[/QUOTE] Life experience yes, but money? It will be a cold day in hell when they pay you anything significant for doing military or civil service here. :rofl:

[QUOTE=Karst;4494703]However, I don't believe in the necessity of a military at all. The sad truth is, there are only two reasons why someone here would pick military service above civil service: because it's three months shorter, or because they think firing a gun is "cool". It's always the crude and simple minded that choose that option, and they never learn anything from it (apart from the military drill).

That may be the case there, I wouldn't really know, but I must say you sound very biased about this, have you ever actually met anyone who chose the other option? As for reasons why you would choose military service here, those include a will to defend your country and to learn new things and get experiences you never could in civilian life.

[QUOTE=Karst;4494703]Oh, and to add to that, I think women should do it too.

True, it is indeed not good for the equality of genders to force half of the population to spend a minimum of half a year of their lives working for the state whilst the other half is excluded. Females already have the option to volunteer for military service, but some sort of civil service wouldn't really hurt. As is they get to start their higher education and careers a year earlier than males, which is actually rather unfair.




Maxa

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11th February 2005

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#9 10 years ago

I've "served full time" in the army (12 months) and hope that Finland will eventually join NATO and change the draft to a some kind of symbolic mercenary army.

And now for my reasons: 1) Despite army propaganda, I fail to see Russia, or any close European country as a threat to Finland 2) Even if a war would emerge in some more or less distant place and Finnish NATO-troops would have to go... every mercenary is a volunteer who isn't ultimately there against their will... right? 3) Economical reasons; some say draft is much cheaper, but 18-27 aged men are not able to work for the society, study, start a family... there are a lots of things you can do in a year. 4) Those who need physical exercise or discipline (in the army) the most are usually the ones who stop after a few weeks or go to civil service in the first place. 5) Getting a really small pay and some experiences for 0.5-1 year isn't a fair deal

I don't see any reason why USA should change it's system, no big conflicts around the corner that would make the draft necessary.

I understand lots of other Finns won't share my views... but I'm probably still going for Refresher training - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (had to look that up), if I receive that big brown letter, or was it white..




Primarch Vulkan VIP Member

For the Emperor! Knights of Caliban!

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16th March 2004

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#10 10 years ago

A big fat NO, from me. Many of the reasons have been sated by other users on this thread. I'm not to fond of the war in iraq that has been going on for a few years.


[color=#000000][size=2][b][i]Heralds of the coming doom, Like the cry of the Raven, we are drawn, This oath of war and vengeance, On a blade of exalted iron sworn, With blood anointed swords