Corporal Punishment? (yes, this again.) 24 replies

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#11 8 years ago

I think I was fairly explicit in my insults, at least if you actually fit the criteria I mentioned.




Commissar MercZ

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#12 8 years ago

I think it has been established (by some studies at least) before that 'hitting' a child doesn't really do anything in the long run as far as 'obedience' and good behavior goes. It may quickly dissuade them but I'd imagine long-term use of this might not get the desired effect on the child.

I'm not aware of how it is handled through out the states. I know in most southern states, Texas included, this kind of 'discipline' isn't forbidden in any form. Other states only extend the ban to the behavior in school. I think a similar thing is seen in other countries where if a ban is present, it's usually in the schools only. From what wikipedia shows me there is legislation banning this in both the schools and private residences in Germany, Poland, Austria, Hungary, Netherlands, Luxemburg, Scandinavia, Finland, etc. Countries like UK and Italy prohibit the method in school, and interestingly enough France has no restrictions on it whatsoever.




CKY2K

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#13 8 years ago

No, I don't think it's right. I believe some people aren't mentally mature enough to have kids. I know some kids are screwed up and I know some might have a mental disorder. From my experience I can say it was a bad thing. Then again maybe a parent might go from hitting to verbal abuse, I'm unsure which is worse. I don't think hitting a child in any circumstance should be allowed since messed up parents are capable of taking advantage of the situation. Even if a child goes to protective services there is no guarantee that protective services will believe them for sure. Sadly, there are some people who don't deserve to have kids and there some kids who may not deserve their parents.

I'm sorry to say there is no easy way to settle this, not in this complicated world we live in today. I for one will never hit my child. I don't want them to grow up like that, with fear and memories of me that way. I don't want them to have self-esteem problems and other issues because I mentally sunk to a level of a child and took my young developing son or daughter too damn seriously and struck them as an adult. I won't have that on my conscience. Also, I believe state should pay the fees for child counseling so the parent's have some form of protection from abuse as well. There is no reason a parent if pushed should have to pay the court fees or be inconvenienced if they have the need to call the authorities on their child.




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#14 8 years ago

Which side do I stand on. I believe violence is the only measure from which discipline can trruly come. Hows it go, lessons learned in blood are rarely forgotten. Raised voices only go so far and deep down everyone understands that. You can't reason with a child learning to walk, about the dangers of specific actions and choices. So instead you vehemently scorn. What are these loud voices upholding, if not the threat of violence? Threatening and implementing it are among the same things. Except one is honest.

Sure they may be spankings, and slaps on the hand, but its still violence reinforcing your will.

A lot of idealism here, but little practicality.




CKY2K

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#15 8 years ago

Sedistix;5590261Which side do I stand on. I believe violence is the only measure from which discipline can trruly come. Hows it go, lessons learned in blood are rarely forgotten. Raised voices only go so far and deep down everyone understands that. You can't reason with a child learning to walk, about the dangers of specific actions and choices. So instead you vehemently scorn. What are these loud voices upholding, if not the threat of violence? Threatening and implementing it are among the same things. Except one is honest.

Sure they may be spankings, and slaps on the hand, but its still violence reinforcing your will.

A lot of idealism here, but little practicality.

Well the parent has to be practical as well...

Essentially a parents perception of whats right and wrong is based on idealism.

One parent may scold their child for swearing and not for using drugs. One may scold their child for getting bad grades the other may not. How can you judge that the same form of punishment for both children will end in the same result. It's based entirely on whats acceptable in the parents eyes and how effective they are with their communication. See, that's what it's all really about, effective communication and gaining your child's respect at a young age through this. Physical punishmant, at least the painful kind is lazy and neglectful in my view. Now, making your child work or run laps I can agree with. At least that builds character.

I was punished when I was caught drinking and my brother wasn't when he was caught smoking cigarets and eventually marijuana. See? I was older than he at the time. Double standards also affect this argument. What happens when two siblings get into a fight and one tells the parents a lie? Are you for capital punishment? Because you may have punished an innocent person, and for that there is no forgiveness. Who are you to say that a parent will be responsible enough themselves not to take the punishment too far? To truly be a responsible adult and not let a bad day or their emotions take control of them? What if the parent drinks or uses drugs, or even has a mental disorder? I can see that you and I have lived entirely different childhoods my friend. I think you need to gather some more information before you make a statement like that.

Edit: I see your avatar represents anti christian sentiment. I suspect by your post that you didn't take strictly religious parents into account either which one of mine also was.




ItsChip

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#16 8 years ago

Sedistix;5590261Which side do I stand on. I believe violence is the only measure from which discipline can trruly come. Hows it go, lessons learned in blood are rarely forgotten. Raised voices only go so far and deep down everyone understands that. You can't reason with a child learning to walk, about the dangers of specific actions and choices. So instead you vehemently scorn. What are these loud voices upholding, if not the threat of violence? Threatening and implementing it are among the same things. Except one is honest.

Sure they may be spankings, and slaps on the hand, but its still violence reinforcing your will.

A lot of idealism here, but little practicality.

I can see your point here.

But as I said before I do not agree.

But what I agree or disagree does not make either wrong. It makes this my form if I were a parent and your form if you were a parent. Parenting is all about the parent, it's all what the parent feels is right and wrong, and whatever method they choose, then that's the method. People who confront parents and tell them their methods are wrong have no right. This is the parents child, they choose what they feel is best and that is that.

You make some good points but as I said they would not be best suited for me, but that is just my form.




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#17 8 years ago

It has to be tempered and reasonable. There are these two girls I watched grow up, from birth to early adulthood, each individually. The first could do no wrong, and rightfully so was never punished, despite all the wrongs. As a prepubescent teen she was caught stealing vehicles, twice. In and out of juvie hall all the time. Mixed up in drugs, and petty crimes all the time. She's incarcerated even now.

The other, she was brought up under a reasonable threat of punishment for unacceptable behavior. Spanking, time outs that sort of thing. Nominal stuff for typical parents. She’s an honor role student, and hasn’t been in trouble. Will that ever change, maybe, but at least she’s not a minor looking at being charged as an adult because of lazy parents. Who thought communication was all verbal.

People are different, and so are the circumstances we deal with daily. For my time here what I’ve seen has shown me that those little brats running amok, tearing shit up and causing general pandemonium. The kids you look at and think god damn I‘m so thankful they‘re not mine. They’re the one’s who grew up either without discipline or with too much of it.

I noticed you mentioned different punishments for different ages. That’s really irrelevant to my position. I don’t give a shit what occurs after two years of age. That's a separate field of discipline. One where communication exchange can occur. Prior to that, no such luck. If you can talk then you’re ahead of the game and can reason your fate to a degree. I’m more concerned with the time before this stage. The time where communication is only done thru tone of voice. At that time, punishment reinforced by pain is often the only way to get thru.

It's funny that pain related discipline is referred to as lazy. Lazy is not caring enough to discipline your child for the realities of the world ahead. Letting them learn on their own, figure it out the hard way. Letting them be happy at the expensive of survivability. Why, because it's too much to ask.

As for the avatar. I'm anti religion, of any denomination. (In fact thanks for the mentioning of that, I'll add too it.)

Take for example the old testament. A lot of dark shit to living people, but when you died. That was it. Nothing more, nothing less, you just died and could be at rest. Well the world grew up, and learned some new tricks. In the new testament, instead of punishing the living, barbarically, suffering was saved for after death. Forever lingering in the background. This ever-present threat of violence was a much better form of attrition than the actual application of it.




CKY2K

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#18 8 years ago

Edit:

Sedistix;5590284It has to be tempered and reasonable. There are these two girls I watched grow up, from birth to early adulthood, each individually. The first could do no wrong, and rightfully so was never punished, despite all the wrongs. As a prepubescent teen she was caught stealing vehicles, twice. In and out of juvie hall all the time. Mixed up in drugs, and petty crimes all the time. She's incarcerated even now.

The other, she was brought up under a reasonable threat of punishment for unacceptable behavior. Spanking, time outs that sort of thing. Nominal stuff for typical parents. She’s an honor role student, and hasn’t been in trouble. Will that ever change, maybe, but at least she’s not a minor looking at being charged as an adult because of lazy parents. Who thought communication was all verbal.

People are different, and so are the circumstances we deal with daily. For my time here what I’ve seen has shown me that those little brats running amok, tearing shit up and causing general pandemonium. The kids you look at and think god damn I‘m so thankful they‘re not mine. They’re the one’s who grew up either without discipline or with too much of it.

I noticed you mentioned different punishments for different ages. That’s really irrelevant to my position. I don’t give a shit what occurs after two years of age. That's a separate field of discipline. One where communication exchange can occur. Prior to that, no such luck. If you can talk then you’re ahead of the game and can reason your fate to a degree. I’m more concerned with the time before this stage. The time where communication is only done thru tone of voice. At that time, punishment reinforced by pain is often the only way to get thru.

It's funny that pain related discipline is referred to as lazy. Lazy is not caring enough to discipline your child for the realities of the world ahead. Letting them learn on their own, figure it out the hard way. Letting them be happy at the expensive of survivability. Why, because it's too much to ask.

As for the avatar. I'm anti religion, of any denomination. (In fact thanks for the mentioning of that, I'll add too it.)

Take for example the old testament. A lot of dark shit to living people, but when you died. That was it. Nothing more, nothing less, you just died and could be at rest. Well the world grew up, and learned some new tricks. In the new testament, instead of punishing the living, barbarically, suffering was saved for after death. Forever lingering in the background. This ever-present threat of violence was a much better form of attrition than the actual application of it.

You didn't even really answer anything I asked you. You clearly dodged everything I said and came up with an absurd argument to try to counteract my debate, and your points are conflicting. I'm sorry if I offended you. I merely suggested that you were not speaking from all walks of life. I suggested that you should think about different types of people there are out there before you made a statement that sounded so simplistic and generic. Why do I detect a hint of attitude when I asked you how you felt about religious bible thumpers spanking their children for anything "God" says is wrong or they say is wrong... You don't believe that at an age this doesn't create a conflict in a developing child's mind of what is right and what is wrong? Do you really believe the human species is that timid and weak that physical pain you create will not eventually come back to bite you? Or, are is it just sheer arrogance?

Just so you know I have been around the block before, my mother babysat kids my entire childhood, some who I even watched grow up. My family is very large, full of kids, and also I used to work as a General Custodian at an Elementary school in the inner city. I worked with teachers, they talk. I've seen a lot of parents who would rather smack their children than pay any real attention to them. Starving kids, who get treated, worse than animals, really. You should see how many come in for breakfast when they serve it there. Terrible. You seem like you've made up your mind. I wasn't trying to change it, just trying to get you to see it from another point of view before you passed your final judgement.

Believe it or not, it was never my father hitting me over stupid things that made me the person I am today. I was never afraid of physical pain. Sure I got hurt as a kid and now I've got a lot of tattoos, I always had a high pain tolerance. The only feeling he ever gave me was the anger to fight him, and my brother and I did. Then, one day when I was old enough I got the best of him, he treats me great now. The only thing that taught me right from wrong was this: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Yes, it's from the Bible. I thank Sunday School for teaching me to feel what it's like walking in the shoes of another. See, I have a conscience. I don't like hurting people, I don't like making people feel that way. I feel sadness for someone I have wronged and I feel shame, always have. I've never been in trouble with the law and I was never a little terror as a kid. I was a shy kid. When I got older I did whatever I wanted, does that mean bad stuff, well kinda. Was Dad able to stop me? Nope, I would have done whatever I wanted to anyway and still faced him when I got home. Instead I just hid everything from him. We had no real communication for years because of his methods and personality.

Do you still really believe all parents have the welfare of their children as their first priority? Do you honestly believe this house is Beaver Cleaverville and when Beaver messes up he is punished properly and taught his lesson? Your example is just... stupid, by the way. I don't even believe that story, and even if I did, I know better than to make my judgments on your one story versus my own knowledge. My Ex was one of those goodie two shoes college girls, she was the biggest wh*re - excuse me - I ever met, so were her friends. Do you have any idea how many stories I heard about her after we broke up? If I'd have known a fraction of what I know now I would have never even talked to her. Do her parent's know any of this? No. Who where they always were ragging on? Her brother. He couldn't do a thing right and now he's a depressed drug addict. You sound like a very angry, harsh, simple minded person who can't even hold a proper debate on a topic they speak passionately about. You say it has to be tempered and reasonable when at times you come across totally unreasonable and ill tempered. I would never let you watch my children, I sure as hell wouldn't trust you. You talk like you hate them and frankly, you're insulting just to talk to and are extremely negative. I don't appreciate your foul language, I did not use any of the vulgarity you did with me when I was talking to you. My part of this conversation is over.

Have a nice night.




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#19 8 years ago

Beating your child who is just starting to develop a moral compass is incredibly stupid. We aren't born knowing right from wrong, we have to be shown, and doing something frowned upon by society to show your child doing bad things is wrong, is a horrible way to teach.

It's critical that you show your children why what they did is wrong as early as possible, many kids today just don't give a damn because their parents think saying "don't do this" or beating them is a good reason. Why is it bad, dad, because YOU'LL beat me? Your children won't fear you forever, a lot of them who are beaten grow up to resent their parents.

And Sedistix, your example seemed something even too cliche for a textbook.




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#20 8 years ago

The two girls aren't fictitious examples, they're my nieces. As for CKY2K, did I quote you? No, so obviously I wasn't responding to you alone.