Do you REALLY want socialism. ? 98 replies

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Demonseed Advanced Member

Gettin' real tired of you ducking me, man...

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28th December 2004

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#91 11 years ago
Warforger;5292415They don't. In fact most of the people your talking about generally like their healthcare system, and the stories of Canadians coming down to the US were called bullshit by the Canadian government. That and the Healthcare wasn't nationalizing 1/6th of the economy, that was thrown out last December.

No, it was simply delayed. If you think there will still be private insurance companies left in the US ten years from now, your understanding of free markets is flawed. The goal of the current bill is single payer. That's what Obama has long supported. This is just the way to get there, because they didn't have the votes to pass single payer at this time.

They have to read it, its their job

No, they have to vote on it. Nothing requires them to read it. I haven't the time to look it up now, but there was a Democrat Congressman who made this same point about the health care bill, and said he hadn't read it because he needed two or three lawyers to interpret it for him.

He has on many occasions, hell he even got journalists to compare it with another birth certificate and they said it 100% real, the photo's of the one that says he's Kenyan is a fake one.

He released a COLB, which isn't exactly the same theng. It's good enough for me, but why not shut those idiots up already? I'm sure that pretty much everyone except them is tired of hearing it.

The Republicans don't seem that different, they constantly were doing the fear mongering that they learned to do after 9/11 instead this time with "tyranny" and "socialism"

The Republican party under GWB got away from the principles that most Americans agree with: small government, lower taxes, actual free markets. That's why you have a Democrat Congress and President right now. If you don't hold true to your stated values, no one will vote for you. Luckily, the GOP seems to be getting back on track now.

37th Best actually The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems

People love to link that study, but it's fundamentally flawed. Even if it wasn't, it's a ten-year old study. The WHO took so much flak for their methods when they released it that they haven't done another on since. Also, that study doesn't have any relation to actual quality of health care. It measures delivery of health care much more than quality.

I don't think anyone here would dispute that the delivery system needs work, but the health care itself is just fine.

Thats basically the kind of bill it was

If you seriously believe that anything I listed was in the bill that passed, we need to have a serious talk. Every one of these ideas is in Paul Ryan's plan. None of them are in ObamaCare.

This bill contains MORE insurance mandates, not less. Insurance costs will necessarily skyrocket to cover the cost increase to the insurance companies. Tons of companies are already reporting 40%+ increases in insurance costs for next year, and it's going to get worse. It's not like insurance companies were making a lot of profit margin before this passed.

Here's a US News and World Report article (Why Health Insurers Make Lousy Villains - Rick Newman (usnews.com)) that confirms it - less than a 4% margin. WIth the cost rocket about to go up thanks to this bill, 4% goes away awfully quick.




Quetron

USA

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28th August 2006

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#92 11 years ago

"Pull your head out of the gutter and get the tinfoil hat off. "

likewise

You won't even stoop so low as to know or care about facts, and disregarding foxnews is a telltale sign of it.

Like this "Anyways that's not social justice (what a surprise, you can't even define that correctly), go tell his and Faracons church, it's all about taking the country back to the ones who deserve it,the rich white man, thats all they preach day after day. But you being so embeded and brainwashed so far from reality you have no clue.Just go listen to what they say, I don't have to prove anything it's all in thier own words.




Crazy Wolf Advanced Member

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#93 11 years ago
Demonseed;5292716No, it was simply delayed. If you think there will still be private insurance companies left in the US ten years from now, your understanding of free markets is flawed. The goal of the current bill is single payer. That's what Obama has long supported. This is just the way to get there, because they didn't have the votes to pass single payer at this time.

I'm pretty sure my health insurance company will be around in 10 years. As a nonprofit corporation, it's not legally required to wring every penny they can out of their customers. They provide high-quality care, although they do limit things slightly (for example, instead of getting a pricier 30mg extended-release pill for 1xdaily use, you'd get 2 15mg pills). This seems like the model people will be moving to, not something that will go extinct because of healthcare regulation (yeah, just like factories went extinct once they had some regulation about working hours, minimum wages, or child labor! Er, wait, nevermind.)

No, they have to vote on it. Nothing requires them to read it. I haven't the time to look it up now, but there was a Democrat Congressman who made this same point about the health care bill, and said he hadn't read it because he needed two or three lawyers to interpret it for him.

True on that count. I think there should be a push for bills to be written as precisely as possible, in as clear language as possible. If you've seen the Simple English Wikipedia, that's basically the idea that I have. Make it so that the vast majority of people can understand the law/bill/government action the first time they read it.

He released a COLB, which isn't exactly the same theng. It's good enough for me, but why not shut those idiots up already? I'm sure that pretty much everyone except them is tired of hearing it.

A Certificate Of Live Birth is the birth certificate, it is exactly the same thing. That's what they're called in most of the United States. "Birth Certificate" is just a faster way of saying it. If it was a Certificate of Birth Registration, then there might be ground to stand on. As it is, there is absolutely nothing to this claim.

Sorry if this seems like it's a rant targeted at you, I just really get bugged by false technicalities.

The Republican party under GWB got away from the principles that most Americans agree with: small government, lower taxes, actual free markets. That's why you have a Democrat Congress and President right now. If you don't hold true to your stated values, no one will vote for you. Luckily, the GOP seems to be getting back on track now.

There are no free markets, and I don't think any have existed in this country (that weren't controlled by smugglers or pirates). I'd love to hear some examples of free markets, preferably you'll give me a time period to examine, as well as a location.

...I don't think anyone here would dispute that the delivery system needs work, but the health care itself is just fine...

No dispute there, just need doctors to start washing their hands regularly and nurses to stop stealing painkillers and replacing them with saline. :nodding:




Demonseed Advanced Member

Gettin' real tired of you ducking me, man...

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#94 11 years ago
Crazy Wolf;5292796I'm pretty sure my health insurance company will be around in 10 years. As a nonprofit corporation, it's not legally required to wring every penny they can out of their customers. They provide high-quality care, although they do limit things slightly (for example, instead of getting a pricier 30mg extended-release pill for 1xdaily use, you'd get 2 15mg pills). This seems like the model people will be moving to, not something that will go extinct because of healthcare regulation (yeah, just like factories went extinct once they had some regulation about working hours, minimum wages, or child labor! Er, wait, nevermind.)

The regulations you're citing aren't in any way comparable to those in the healthcare bill. If they regulations and mandates of the healthcare bill were applied to a factory, the government would be deciding what products the factory would make, what materials they were required to utilize to build them, and how much they could charge for them.

A nonprofit corporation may still be around, but it'll be interesting to see if the nonprofit insurers will be able to break even under the new regulations.

True on that count. I think there should be a push for bills to be written as precisely as possible, in as clear language as possible. If you've seen the Simple English Wikipedia, that's basically the idea that I have. Make it so that the vast majority of people can understand the law/bill/government action the first time they read it.

I'd support that! If the average person can't tell what his representative was voting on, how can he be an informed voter?

A Certificate Of Live Birth is the birth certificate, it is exactly the same thing. That's what they're called in most of the United States. "Birth Certificate" is just a faster way of saying it. If it was a Certificate of Birth Registration, then there might be ground to stand on. As it is, there is absolutely nothing to this claim.

Sorry if this seems like it's a rant targeted at you, I just really get bugged by false technicalities.

No worries. As I said before, I don't give any credence to these arguments, but here's where the argument originates:

Hawaii statute basically allows the parents of a child born out of state to obtain a COLB. The actual birth certificate would have the name of the hospital and the signature of the doctor who delivered the baby. Here's the statute:

[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child. (b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate. (c) The fee for each application for registration shall be established by rule adopted pursuant to chapter 91. [L 1982, c 182, §1]

Again, it's mostly a bunch of crazies trying to build a conspiracy theory. It's the same people who think the CIA is watching them and that Elvis is running a Wendy's in Saginaw.

There are no free markets, and I don't think any have existed in this country (that weren't controlled by smugglers or pirates). I'd love to hear some examples of free markets, preferably you'll give me a time period to examine, as well as a location.

Agreed. How about I revise that statement to be "as free a market as possible." No onw who has run a business in this country can say that the amount of regulation isn't overly onerous and pointless. Sure, there are regulations that we need, but that makes up about 5% of the total regulatory load. As a former owner of a small business, I can tell you that the amount of paperwork required just to stay in compliance is ridiculous.

No dispute there, just need doctors to start washing their hands regularly and nurses to stop stealing painkillers and replacing them with saline. :nodding:

I'd rather see ambulance-chasing lawyers tarred and feathered, since that would do more good on the costs front than any regulation that's ever been passed, but that's just me.




Crazy Wolf Advanced Member

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#95 11 years ago

The Hawaii statute does use the vaguer language of "birth certificate", which would also include the "Certificate of Birth Registration". It's sorta like the "a square is always a rectangle, but a rectangle is not always a square". In this sense, Obama's Certificate of Live Birth is the square.

And we don't talk about Saginaw, you know that ;)

The thing is that there's almost never a free market, and when there has been a free market there's usually been abuses of some sort, whether it's delivering a substandard or unsafe product or pushing your competitors out of business through less-than-honest methods. I sympathize with the hassles of paperworks, both my parents are small business owners, and they're in California, which basically means that they have to cut down a redwood to provide all the paper they need. However, I think that paperwork could be reduced significantly if inter-agency communication was improved and the language was simplified. I'm also wary of getting rid of something just because it's a hassle, generally things that are a hassle have some reason, whether it's the seat-belt in your car or the census form you have to fill out.




Nemmerle Advanced Member

Voice of joy and sunshine

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#96 11 years ago

Crazy Wolf;5292828The thing is that there's almost never a free market, and when there has been a free market there's usually been abuses of some sort, whether it's delivering a substandard or unsafe product or pushing your competitors out of business through less-than-honest methods.

[...]

I'm also wary of getting rid of something just because it's a hassle, generally things that are a hassle have some reason, whether it's the seat-belt in your car or the census form you have to fill out.

More regulation is not necessarily the same as having a better regulated system. It is my experience that a lot of regulation exists not because it is necessary for the public good but because at one point it granted, or continues to grant, an advantage to an interested party that had the political influence to have it put in place. People exploit regulations through less than honest practices just as much as they exploit freedoms.




Commissar MercZ

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#97 11 years ago

Quetron;5292750"Pull your head out of the gutter and get the tinfoil hat off. "

likewise

Like wise? Am I preaching about Obama's devious plan to take from the rich white man to the blacks? No....

You won't even stoop so low as to know or care about facts, and disregarding foxnews is a telltale sign of it.

Uh, what "facts" have you posed so far showing Obama is a socialist? So far the most I've seen is ranting from you, recycling this nonsense about Obama supposedly being a socialist, where as I have linked to news articles and already told you what socialism is ad nauseam. I would say I'm the one using facts, you are the one spouting nonsense. Big surprise there.

Like this "Anyways that's not social justice (what a surprise, you can't even define that correctly), go tell his and Faracons church, it's all about taking the country back to the ones who deserve it,the rich white man, thats all they preach day after day.

Did you even know about this church before Fox told you about it? Quite honestly it doesn't seem to have an impact on political sphere. Show me an Obama agenda that fits in with that, and you'll find nothing.

And why did you switch to Farrakhan from Reverend Wright? Are you mixing up the scary minorities the news is telling you about? :rofl:

Nation of Islam has nothing to do with Obama, or socialism for that matter :confused:.

But you being so embeded and brainwashed so far from reality you have no clue.Just go listen to what they say, I don't have to prove anything it's all in thier own words.

You have a lot to prove. So far you've just been ranting nonsense that's recycled out of places like World Net Daily.

Most educated political people can tell you Obama is not a socialist. In fact so far the things I've seen you level went from this,

-Taxes, gubmint, welfare= socialism. We've already mention this would make every country socialist.

-"Social Justice", taking a note out of Glenn Beck.

-Obama wants to take from the white man and he listened to that guy in Church1!!!!11

Notice how you are veering more and more away from socialism to just trying to get on idiotic paths to knock around Obama? It's obvious from other posts in here that everyone else has gone off topic and we see it for what it really is, Obama's policies, not socialism. You just use a buzzword to make it seem more doom and glum.

I've said it before and I'll say it again- it's obvious that your issues lay with Obama and Democrats and what ever misinformation the media is feeding to your insecurities. Using a word like "socialism", not knowing what it means beyond "bad", it is obvious you have a horribly poor handling of politics.




Crazy Wolf Advanced Member

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#98 11 years ago

Nemmerle, that's one reason why I think that plain language in law would be a benefit, it makes it easier to spot which things are just bullshit.




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#99 11 years ago

Demonseed;5292716No, it was simply delayed. If you think there will still be private insurance companies left in the US ten years from now, your understanding of free markets is flawed. The goal of the current bill is single payer. That's what Obama has long supported. This is just the way to get there, because they didn't have the votes to pass single payer at this time. [/QUOTE]

IIRC Ireland has nationalized healthcare AND private, but I never said private corporations would go away.

Demonseed;5292716 No, they have to vote on it. Nothing requires them to read it. I haven't the time to look it up now, but there was a Democrat Congressman who made this same point about the health care bill, and said he hadn't read it because he needed two or three lawyers to interpret it for him. [/QUOTE]

Thats one congressman, some Republicans didn't even bother to read it even.

Demonseed;5292716 The Republican party under GWB got away from the principles that most Americans agree with: small government, lower taxes, actual free markets. That's why you have a Democrat Congress and President right now. If you don't hold true to your stated values, no one will vote for you. Luckily, the GOP seems to be getting back on track now.

Well GWB was pretty bad a horrid hypocrite for the GOP, extending gubmit control anyway. Currently the GOP has found a way to get a very secure fan base, scare them using words like tyranny and socialism, then Fox will use the same words, then on top of that leave out facts or twist them for fear. For example, when Fox news was reviewing the Nuclear Treaty Obama just signed, they completely left out the fact that the treaty said that it doesn't apply to countries not signed to the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty, and that it could be changed when the US is under attack from a biological attack, and they acted as though the treaty said all their weapons are gone. Even worse they pointed to Ronald Reagan as an example of what we should be doing, guess what? Ronald Reagan started this reducing Nuclear arms shit, he said that the US arsenal should be at least a 1/3rd of then current number, which is exactly what this treaty did.

[QUOTE=Demonseed;5292716] People love to link that study, but it's fundamentally flawed. Even if it wasn't, it's a ten-year old study. The WHO took so much flak for their methods when they released it that they haven't done another on since. Also, that study doesn't have any relation to actual quality of health care. It measures delivery of health care much more than quality.

Any link to this?

[QUOTE=Demonseed;5292716] I don't think anyone here would dispute that the delivery system needs work, but the health care itself is just fine.

But to say its the best is a really long shot.