Kenny Glenn 41 replies

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Anson992

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15th October 2005

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#21 10 years ago
TheDarkInvader;4809763While being a cat owner I really hate animal abuse of this sort, I guess there is little point getting worked up over it. That said, it's pretty bad that the authorities just turn a blind eye.

There really isn't a need to get worked up, but the very fact that no one is progressing with a legal course of action is exactly what GOT me worked up.

Nem can say it, animal abuse existed far before we read that article or saw that video, but the true difference is (much like MrFancyPants said) all the proof is there and still they do nothing.

I'm not the guy trusting today's legal system, it's an idiotic thing, they don't do it to help, they'd much rather have cops write tickets than actually give a rats ass and do something to help this world. WHAT the hell makes you think he won't do it again? The least they could do is put him on some list that says he can never adopt a pet again.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

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#22 10 years ago

MrFancypants;4809777Voicing your opinion about such incidents in a decisive manner creates a social taboo if enough people do it. Laws against animal cruelty aren't very effective, if someone wants to hurt a cat then there is little one can do to prevent it and it is difficult to punish such a person unless they are dumb enough to distribute evidence over the internet. An existing taboo is a more relevant threat to a possible offender.

So voicing your opinion is not as ineffective as you say. It isn't as effective as joining some dedicated group of activists or even making a donation to such groups, but it is more effective than stating that you don't care.

It creates a taboo, but against getting caught or against doing the thing? 'People dislike it and you enjoy it,' just suggests to me you take greater lengths to cover up what you've done. The effect of which simply prevents the system from knowing about you and doesn't exactly help.




MrFancypants Forum Admin

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#23 10 years ago
Nemmerle;4809824It creates a taboo, but against getting caught or against doing the thing? 'People dislike it and you enjoy it,' just suggests to me you take greater lengths to cover up what you've done. The effect of which simply prevents the system from knowing about you and doesn't exactly help.

According to that logic any sort of law only makes criminals better at what they do and is therefore more harmful than helpful.

There may be some truth in the argument that criminals get better if it takes more effort to cover up crimes, but I'd guess that the number of people tortuing animals decreases with increased effort just like the number of people buying a product will decrease if you increase the price. There may still be people who are so obsessed with torturing cats that they will invest as much effort as it takes, but attention-seeking teenagers such as this one may lose interest.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

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#24 10 years ago

MrFancypants;4809867According to that logic any sort of law only makes criminals better at what they do and is therefore more harmful than helpful.

There may be some truth in the argument that criminals get better if it takes more effort to cover up crimes, but I'd guess that the number of people tortuing animals decreases with increased effort just like the number of people buying a product will decrease if you increase the price. There may still be people who are so obsessed with torturing cats that they will invest as much effort as it takes, but attention-seeking teenagers such as this one may lose interest.

The negative consequencies of law do make criminals better at what they do, just look at the prohibition and present day drug trafficing in America and similar places. When you're making a law you have to balance your ability to enforce it against this improvement. In the case of a taboo you have almost zero ability to enforce it; because, rather than being created by people out there doing things about it, it is created and maintained by a bunch of people who just yell at it from the safety of their homes.

It's like so many things: Everyone's keen on screaming for something to be done about it at the start, when talk doesn't cost them anything. But sooner or later they work themselves up to a point where they either have to do something or back down. And then there's an awkward pause, and people look at each other to see if someone else is going to go first. And then it just becomes the way things are done, washed away under the comforting sea of statistical data.

Cats are beaten? Tragic, tragic. But after all there's a Star Trek marathon on TV tonight, and I want a coffee, and I've got work tommorow, and has this stuff not always gone on in the world? It's just the way things are.

The improvement in criminal operations; that people are less likely to advertise their actions in this regard and thus prevent the social mechanisms from taking any well planned action about the issue; far outweighs the positive aspect of a taboo. These outcries serve simply to illustrate to a criminal the impotence of the public outrage.




Emperor Benedictine

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#25 10 years ago

A taboo against cruelty to animals clearly exists right now and it doesn't persuade cretins not to broadcast their actions over the internet. At least if laws against animal cruelty were properly enforced, people like this would think twice about abusing animals for attention. Even though people could carry on such behaviour in secret in defiance of the law, the fact they can demonstrably get away with it now only encourages others to do the same thing. Besides which, not everybody has the capacity to weigh up how likely they are to be caught against how much they enjoy doing something illegal, some will just avoid criminal acts altogether out of fear.




MrFancypants Forum Admin

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#26 10 years ago
Nemmerle;4809980The negative consequencies of law do make criminals better at what they do, just look at the prohibition and present day drug trafficing in America and similar places. When you're making a law you have to balance your ability to enforce it against this improvement. In the case of a taboo you have almost zero ability to enforce it; because, rather than being created by people out there doing things about it, it is created and maintained by a bunch of people who just yell at it from the safety of their homes.

I didn't disagree that laws don't lead to more experienced criminals, I disagreed with the conclusion that this effect outweighs the effect of a law.

Even with your examples of prohibition and drugs the laws reduce the consumption of either. For example, drug prices are proportional to the effort involved in creating and smuggling drugs. That effort is much higher if you have to grow the plants in Africa or South American and then smuggle it to Europe or the US. In your examples the effect may not be dramatic, but there are probably other sorts of crimes which are easier to enforce. Bank-robbery, for example, doesn't seem to be as attractive as it used to be.

Besides, not only criminals gather experience, the police does too. So in the case of laws those effects probably negate each other (or maybe the police-experience outweighs it since it is easier for them to access data with their international networks).

A taboo is not enforced by authorities and doesn't benefit from experience, but it still works because of a peer pressure or deterrence.

If you look at your examples of drugs and alcohol-related crimes don't you think that social acceptance is a factor why corresponding laws are relatively ineffective? I'd guess that prohibition worked quite well in areas where drinking wasn't acceptable in the first place (e.g. one of those American groups of religious fanatics) while it didn't work so well in places where drinking alcohol was populat (e.g. a district with mostly Irish immigrants).

It's like so many things: Everyone's keen on screaming for something to be done about it at the start, when talk doesn't cost them anything. But sooner or later they work themselves up to a point where they either have to do something or back down. And then there's an awkward pause, and people look at each other to see if someone else is going to go first. And then it just becomes the way things are done, washed away under the comforting sea of statistical data.

This isn't always true, there are many examples of public opinion influencing the way an issue is handled and in those cases where it is true the protesting still serves to establish or strengthen a taboo. But even if people were always as lethargic as you describe why speak out against the little bit of enthusiasm they have left? Seems rather counter-productive.

Cats are beaten? Tragic, tragic. But after all there's a Star Trek marathon on TV tonight, and I want a coffee, and I've got work tommorow, and has this stuff not always gone on in the world? It's just the way things are.

The improvement in criminal operations; that people are less likely to advertise their actions in this regard and thus prevent the social mechanisms from taking any well planned action about the issue; far outweighs the positive aspect of a taboo. These outcries serve simply to illustrate to a criminal the impotence of the public outrage.

If there was no taboo advertising such activities in public wouldn't lead to any change that decrease them anyway. Rather there would be imitation because of the success of the original perpetrator. So voicing your opinon about animal cruelty still has more of an effect against it than accepting it or even actively deconstructing a taboo by criticising it.




Anson992

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#27 10 years ago
Nemmerle;4809980Cats are beaten? Tragic, tragic. But after all there's a Star Trek marathon on TV tonight, and I want a coffee, and I've got work tommorow, and has this stuff not always gone on in the world? It's just the way things are.

And the reason they stay this way is because people look at it in this perspective. It's always going to happen, yadda yadda yadda.

You're right, when I woke up this morning I wasn't all outraged about people beating cats, though I was aware of it. But then I read this article, and the fact that all the proof is there and yet no one takes the necessary steps for legal action is what pissed me off.

There are going to be cat beaters, who do it well, and get away with it, but in the rare case that some idiot decides to advertise his criminal actions on Youtube someone should take action. After all, it doesn't happen all the time, so when the proof is there, why not take the initiative?

Nothing is ever going to change if apathetic individuals continue to look at the world from a "if no one does anything about it what can I?" perspective.




dRaStiQ

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#28 10 years ago

I hope the cat hurts him!




Stryker500

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#29 10 years ago

Stupid asshole kid doing shit for attention. I hope a tiger breaks out of a zoo and mauls him close to death.

Indeed cruelty like this happens all the time and nobody sees, but by taking a video of it he just shows himself to be even more of an asshole. It makes me wish there was a requirement test for the internet.




Primarch Vulkan VIP Member

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#30 10 years ago
Stryker500;4810417Stupid asshole kid doing shit for attention. I hope a tiger breaks out of a zoo and mauls him close to death.

How Christian of you.... Yet Animal Abuse happens every single day and yet we never know about...Someone posts a video on it everyone wants the persons blood.


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