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Huffardo

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#21 12 years ago

MrFancypants;4804786I watched the first few minutes and wasn't impressed. Some backwater politician playing on widespread fears to gain popular support doesn't seem so extraordinary. You don't have to look hard to find propaganda videos by Hamas or similar groups with about the same quality.[/QUOTE] You should really watch the film before you jump on the train criticizing it because it is the politically correct thing to do.

It is by no means an extraordinary film, but it has an important message that is being ignored by many and the reactions do not exactly prove him wrong, even though they obviously were baited.

Propaganda videos by radical muslims may be similar in content, but Wilders does not promote violence against anyone in his, which you would realize if you watched it.

MrFancypants;4804786It is a bit sad how easily people are manipulated by such cheap propaganda though.

Agreed, it is sad that a film had to be made specifically to upset extremists to get attention and thus be able to provoke a debate on the issue whilst a long objective documentary never would have had a chance to get the attention of the media. Unfortunately that is the way things work, you have to stick out to be noticed.

EDIT: [QUOTE=Tas;4804839] The application of the term propaganda is also lil iffy, there is no misinformation in this video. These are actual verses from the koran, a book muslims swear by.

One definition of propaganda according to dictionary.com: "Information that is spread for the purpose of promoting some cause".




MrFancypants Forum Administrator

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#22 12 years ago

Tas;4804839Why would you start out by saying this was done by a politician from a "backwater country"? Not I'm not offended that you'd call my country a backwater because it's not all that important. I'm just wondering what does it have to do with the validity of the message?

The application of the term propaganda is also lil iffy, there is no misinformation in this video. These are actual verses from the koran, a book muslims swear by.

It seems you just disagree with the subject of this video and choose to somehow try to invalidate its message by attacking the creator, the message and the audience without actually arguing the point the video is making.[/quote] I didn't mean your country, I was just talking about a politician who uses fearmongering to get attention.

There isn't much information in this video. But the intention seems pretty obvious: Exploit fear, link extremists to an easy-to-blame minority and blow existing problems totally out of proportion. He is reselling bigotry, only this time with Muslims instead of Jews being the bad guys.

[quote=Huffardo;4804862]You should really watch the film before you jump on the train criticizing it because it is the politically correct thing to do.

It is by no means an extraordinary film, but it has an important message that is being ignored by many and the reactions do not exactly prove him wrong, even though they obviously were baited.

Propaganda videos by radical muslims may be similar in content, but Wilders does not promote violence against anyone in his, which you would realize if you watched it.

Agreed, it is sad that a film had to be made specifically to upset extremists to get attention and thus be able to provoke a debate on the issue whilst a long objective documentary never would have had a chance to get the attention of the media. Unfortunately that is the way things work, you have to stick out to be noticed.

EDIT:

One definition of propaganda according to dictionary.com: "Information that is spread for the purpose of promoting some cause".

I watched the first few minutes then skipped through it but the rest seemed to be just more of the same (videos of religious extremists in action and nasty passages from the Quran), so it didn't really look worthy of my time, especially since I've seen similar movies already.

Why do you bring political correctness into this anyway? Looks like a poor strawman to me.

The author may not directly promote violence, but by linking a religion in general with the acts of extremists he incites conflict. People who use fear to their advantage usually don't mind taking advantage of the anger that goes with it either. He probably also knows that such a bland criticism will lead to violent reactions. I agree that it shouldn't, but if you know that it does and you go ahead with such videos anyway because a black and white approach suits your policial goals then you share, in my opinion, responsibility for the results of the violence that may be sparked by such videos. That's why I don't blame the UK for trying to keep such a bigot out of their country.

I think your definition of propaganda suits perfectly to this video.




Nemmerle Advanced Member

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#23 12 years ago

What we have here are two extremes. One group of people would say only bad things of Islam, one group of people would say only good. The reality lies somewhere in between - and if you want to reach it expressing either view cannot be banned. Just as we allow things that glorify Islam, so too we must allow things that criticise it.




Inyri Forge Advanced Member

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#24 12 years ago

Just remember that ideologies don't kill people, people kill people. If you apply to actions to the right thing -- people, not the religion itself -- you're likely to offend less people. I've known many peace-loving Muslims in my day, but there are still others that would love to tear down everything they disagree with. Applying the stereotypes to the whole group is unfair, though.




Tas

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#25 12 years ago

MrFancypants;4804919I didn't mean your country, I was just talking about a politician who uses fearmongering to get attention.

There isn't much information in this video. But the intention seems pretty obvious: Exploit fear, link extremists to an easy-to-blame minority and blow existing problems totally out of proportion. He is reselling bigotry, only this time with Muslims instead of Jews being the bad guys.

You were calling my country a backwater.

No, the information in the video isn't balanced, and yes the point of this video is to point out some of the horrible things the Koran endorses. Does this make it propaganda? By some definitions it is, but then again many things are and the "label" propaganda only tends to be applied to "messages to a cause" that people do not agree with because it carries a negative association.

The message of fitna is not that all muslims are out to get us. The message is that muslims in general fail to distance themselves from the verses featured in the movie, you will be hard pressed to find a "normal" muslim that is willing to say that some parts of the koran are barbaric and are best left ignored in front of their peers.

"They" are incapable of weathering criticism to anything related to Islam, as they equally incapable to respect the traditions in the west regarding satire. If anyone utters criticism or makes a joke you'll have a shitstorm on your hands. This wouldn't be too much of a problem if they didn't insist on trying to push censorship on the liberal elements of our all too willing government all the time.

In a nutshell, the supposed majority of muslims stay quiet as the alleged minority go out and protest against criticism/satire about their religion and a even smaller minority go out with the mission to murder those that do. No matter the numbers, when you have to fear for your life when you utter sustained criticism about some religion something is very wrong. I can't fucking utter the word Islam out loud in school without having 20some assholes crowding up on me.




Inyri Forge Advanced Member

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#26 12 years ago

Islamic culture is very different from western culture. You're going to have to give them as a group a little time to adjust to western ideologies. As far as the Koran is concerned, the Bible is quite barbaric in some places as well, we just have the benefit of western thinking to allow us to accept this and move on. Give them some time to acclimate; they weren't raised the same way we were.

On the same note, western critics need to understand that criticizing something like Muslim is not the same as criticizing a western religion. They need to understand it won't be received the same and accept the consequences if they do intend on going forward.




Nemmerle Advanced Member

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#27 12 years ago
Inyri Forge;4804956Just remember that ideologies don't kill people, people kill people. If you apply to actions to the right thing -- people, not the religion itself -- you're likely to offend less people. I've known many peace-loving Muslims in my day, but there are still others that would love to tear down everything they disagree with. Applying the stereotypes to the whole group is unfair, though.

People kill people, but they do so only in the presence of certain ideologies. While it's true that many muslims are peaceful pretending that their religion is not a factor in acts of bloodshed is as much a mistake as pretending that it's the sole factor. They don't kill people because of their religion, but it's certainly a part of it.




Inyri Forge Advanced Member

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#28 12 years ago
Nemmerle;4805004People kill people, but they do so only in the presence of certain ideologies.

I know what you mean, but you should rephrase it so it's actually true. =p

While it's true that many muslims are peaceful pretending that their religion is not a factor in acts of bloodshed is as much a mistake as pretending that it's the sole factor. They don't kill people because of their religion, but it's certainly a part of it.

I wasn't pretending it isn't true, however blaming the religion for actions is silly, since there are a vast number of people who can read the same scripture and not commit those same actions. Blaming the ideology is nothing more than an excuse, and by doing so you cast a pall on both the bad folks and the good folks.

At the end of the day the Koran is a book. How people interpret it and act on it is the problem. You wouldn't blame Grand Theft Auto for making people go out and beat up hookers and run people over, would you? So why would you blame a book for making people kill each other?




Tas

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#29 12 years ago

Inyri Forge;4804996Islamic culture is very different from western culture. You're going to have to give them as a group a little time to adjust to western ideologies. As far as the Koran is concerned, the Bible is quite barbaric in some places as well, we just have the benefit of western thinking to allow us to accept this and move on. Give them some time to acclimate; they weren't raised the same way we were.[/quote]

No, fuck that. I'm not talking about 50/60 year old older generation muslims here, I'm talking about young people around my age, 20 or so, born and raised locally to dislike the stereotypical things muslims supposedly hate. These guys and gals weren't raised like us and their kids won't be raised like us either.

On the same note, western critics need to understand that criticizing something like Muslim is not the same as criticizing a western religion. They need to understand it won't be received the same and accept the consequences if they do intend on going forward.

It's not he same in that someone drawing a cartoon of jesus doing something sinful will at most receive a few angry emails. Someone doing the same about mohammed is best of leaving the country and changing his name. That's not a problem on "our" side but on the side of that community. I'm of opinion that people who so insist that islam and mohammed may not be criticized or ridiculed can fuck right the hell off back to where they came from.

It's the way we do things here, has been for hundreds of years, I'll be damned if I'm going to adapt to them more than i already have by forcing myself to speak in hushed tones in order not to get beaten up.

They should adapt to things here and not try to adapt us to suit them. I don't harbor I'll will to those that do keep to themselves, do not commit fratricide over "honor" matters and don't try to stop satire/criticism. If you wonder why I appear to be so worked up it's because I'm tired of apologetic nonmuslims saying "It's just a small minority". If it's such a small minority then why do i fear for my well being when saying anything about Islam, Muslims or anything positive regarding jews? I can't count on the supposed majority of moderate muslims to hold their aggressive buddies back.

[quote=Inyri Forge;4805007]At the end of the day the Koran is a book. How people interpret it and act on it is the problem. You wouldn't blame Grand Theft Auto for making people go out and beat up hookers and run people over, would you? So why would you blame a book for making people kill each other?

When a book says in plain wording "Kill X and stone Y in cases of Z" and the people fallowing those words mention their scripture you can pretty much blame the book and thus the religion for those actions. I'd blame the parents but old testament/koran scripture tends to put family second to the will of god.




Fyurii

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#30 12 years ago
Sedistix;4803873I read somewhere that a Islamic religious figure threatened to have 10,000 Muslims protest unless Geert was banned.

It wasn't an Islamic religious figure, it was a Labour member of the House of Lords. Lord Ahmed -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Ahmed

Pat' vid even mentions him in the beginning of it.

Personally, the Government should have just let Geert into the country, and allowed him to show his vid to the House of Lords. That way, they could all come to their own opinions about it.

By banning his entry, then turning him back in the direction he came when he did enter, the only thing that's been accomplished is to further raise awarness of him and his video.

Yes, it raises some valid points, but pretty much does so in a more generalist view about the whole of Islam as opposed to those who actually do the kinds of things the video highlights. The exact same kind of video can be (and probably has been for all I know) made about other religions.

I personally refuse to believe that an entire international culture thinks the same, and wants the same thing as radical fundamentalist bastards who want power over others by using religion as their tool to commit violence and murder.