Man sues CIA over torture claims 30 replies

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GreatGrizzly

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23rd February 2005

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#11 14 years ago

doesnt the patriot act give them the ability to do this? To pick up people and imprison them without trial? this is living proof....




MR.X`

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30th April 2004

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#12 14 years ago

No, it doesn't. The USA PATRIOT act gives the ability to search a house, obtain a wire-tap, check library records, et cetera, without a warrant, so long as there is solid evidence that the person in question is a threat. It does not give police authorities to kidnap or imprison without a trial.

The reason that people are being held without a trial is that they are being viewed as prisoners of war. They are not accorded a trial, as they are always released at the end of a conflict. The problem is, the war against terrorism may go on forever, so the Geneva Convention's rules need to be modified for this specific conflict.

The Article A man who says he was a victim of the CIA's alleged secret prisons is suing its former chief over torture claims.

Khaled al-Masri says he was kidnapped in 2003 while on holiday in Macedonia, flown to Afghanistan and mistreated.

He claims he was beaten and injected with drugs before being taken to Afghanistan and held for five months.

Though I don't doubt that he was taken somewhere, I'd like to see some proof that this guy was beaten and drugged. If he is just a used car salesman, he has a lot that he can get from all of this publicity. Book deals, speaking at conferences, et cetera. He could be lieing through his teath.




Huffardo

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#13 14 years ago

USMA2010The reason that people are being held without a trial is that they are being viewed as prisoners of war. They are not accorded a trial, as they are always released at the end of a conflict. The problem is, the war against terrorism may go on forever, so the Geneva Convention's rules need to be modified for this specific conflict. [/QUOTE] The war on terror isn't a real war, and as such there can be no prisoners of war. How they believed they could get away with it is a mystery, but oddly enough they did, and succeeded. That still doesn't make it a war though, and I see that as the main problem here.

[QUOTE=USMA2010]Though I don't doubt that he was taken somewhere, I'd like to see some proof that this guy was beaten and drugged. If he is just a used car salesman, he has a lot that he can get from all of this publicity. Book deals, speaking at conferences, et cetera. He could be lieing through his teath.

He has a lot to gain yes, and he has already gone through the horror, so it isn't too unlikely. I doubt he would actually do that for money though, he could be used to sell books and do all that stuff even if he didn't claim to have been beaten. And I'd figure he could get a lot of money by not speaking at all. Perhaps as a revenge and to get publicity to the other victims. But I suppose he has evidence if he is going to court about it.




MR.X`

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#14 14 years ago

The horror? He hasn't prooven anything about this case yet. For all we know, it is just a story.




MrFancypants Forum Administrator

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#15 14 years ago
USMA2010The horror? He hasn't prooven anything about this case yet. For all we know, it is just a story.

Well, it's quite an awful story even without torture. Imagine you'd be kidnapped by some men-in-black, flown out of your country, away from your family and interrogated for months. It is also possible that the CIA used some of those methods which they admit to have used in other cases and I don't imagine this to be a lot of fun either.




Huffardo

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#16 14 years ago
USMA2010The horror? He hasn't prooven anything about this case yet. For all we know, it is just a story.[/QUOTE] Hm, I missed that point, but he would have to be pretty stupid to sue CIA without any evidence at all. This is what I replied to, in case it would make it more clear. [QUOTE=USMA2010] Though I don't doubt that he was taken somewhere, I'd like to see some proof that this guy was beaten and drugged



Mephistopheles

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#17 14 years ago
USMA2010The reason that people are being held without a trial is that they are being viewed as prisoners of war. They are not accorded a trial, as they are always released at the end of a conflict. The problem is, the war against terrorism may go on forever, so the Geneva Convention's rules need to be modified for this specific conflict.[/quote] Most countries still regard terrorists as criminals. I think the Geneva Convention has nothing to do with this case. The local authorities (in this case the Macedonian border guards) should not have handed Mr Masri out to the CIA without further investigation.

WashingtonPost.comSOURCE

Coats informed the German minister that the CIA had wrongfully imprisoned one of its citizens, Khaled Masri, for five months, and would soon release him, the sources said. There was also a request: that the German government not disclose what it had been told even if Masri went public. The U.S. officials feared exposure of a covert action program designed to capture terrorism suspects abroad and transfer them among countries, and possible legal challenges to the CIA from Masri and others with similar allegations. [...] Unlike the military's prison for terrorist suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba -- where 180 prisoners have been freed after a review of their cases -- there is no tribunal or judge to check the evidence against those picked up by the CIA. The same bureaucracy that decides to capture and transfer a suspect for interrogation-- a process called "rendition" -- is also responsible for policing itself for errors. [...]

While the CIA admitted to Germany's then-Interior Minister Otto Schily that it had made a mistake, it has labored to keep the specifics of Masri's case from becoming public. As a German prosecutor works to verify or debunk Masri's claims of kidnapping and torture, the part of the German government that was informed of his ordeal has remained publicly silent. Masri's attorneys say they intend to file a lawsuit in U.S. courts this week.

Masri was held for five months largely because the head of the CIA's Counterterrorist Center's al Qaeda unit "believed he was someone else," one former CIA official said. "She didn't really know. She just had a hunch."[...]

Meanwhile, a German prosecutor continues to work Masri's case. A Macedonia bus driver has confirmed that Masri was taken away by border guards on the date he gave investigators. A forensic analysis of Masri's hair showed he was malnourished during the period he says he was in the prison. Flight logs show a plane registered to a CIA front company flew out of Macedonia on the day Masri says he went to Afghanistan.

Masri can find few words to explain his ordeal. "I have very bad feelings" about the United States, he said. "I think it's just like in the Arab countries: arresting people, treating them inhumanly and less than that, and with no rights and no laws."

On the other hand, some German authorities also knew about this incident and did not make it public. It is actually a hot topic here. [quote=USMA2010]Though I don't doubt that he was taken somewhere, I'd like to see some proof that this guy was beaten and drugged. If he is just a used car salesman, he has a lot that he can get from all of this publicity. Book deals, speaking at conferences, et cetera. He could be lieing through his teath.

Of course, he could lie about the circumstances of his imprisonment. On the other hand, who would confirm his testimony if it were real? Those who interrogated him? Most likely not. I agree that his chances in a trial will be low. On the other hand, even the "legal interrogation methods" by the CIA would be regarded as torture in Germany.

From a German point of view, if the CIA actually had used these "legal interrogation methods" they still would have tortured a(n innocent) German citizen.




Grimme

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#18 14 years ago

I'm sorry but this is too fucking far for Team America. What the fuckity fuck fuck just happened here? Some random guy is on holiday and the US decide to go above and beyond all international law, policy and just abduct him and shove him in a prison in Afghanistan. Not only should the head of the CIA give his most sincere and decent apologies to this man, he should should screw over this whole "Extrodinary Rendtion" crap which is basically an excuse for the US to break their oh so sacred constitution and stop thinking that the US is above the law, sure its a super power but it shouldn't be absuing that status.

From a German point of view, if the CIA actually had used these "legal interrogation methods" they still would have tortured a German citizen.

On that point, what the hell were the CIA doing arresting a german patriot, outside of the US? Shouldn't this be something handled by German anti-terrorist forces? Or even Macedonian ones [if they exist].




GreatGrizzly

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#19 14 years ago
USMA2010No, it doesn't. The USA PATRIOT act gives the ability to search a house, obtain a wire-tap, check library records, et cetera, without a warrant, so long as there is solid evidence that the person in question is a threat.[/quote] "solid evidence" is a broad term. Everyone has a different opinion on what is considered "solid evidence".
USMA2010 It does not give police authorities to kidnap or imprison without a trial.
Than how where the CIA able to do it to this guy? If thats what you meant by police. [quote=USMA2010]The reason that people are being held without a trial is that they are being viewed as prisoners of war.

How is some car salesman from germany a POW?




Blood n Guts

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#20 14 years ago

[COLOR=black]

GrimmeOn that point, what the hell were the CIA doing arresting a german patriot, outside of the US? Shouldn't this be something handled by German anti-terrorist forces? Or even Macedonian ones [if they exist].[/quote]The man was arrested by Macedonian forces and extradited to US custody. He wasn't arrested as a German citizen because the Macedonian police (mis)identified him as someone else. The problem here wasn't that the US arrested and kidnapped him, it’s that he was extradited without due process, which lead to the perpetuation of his misidentification.[/COLOR] [COLOR=black] [/COLOR] [COLOR=black][QUOTE=GreatGrizzly] [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]"solid evidence" is a broad term. Everyone has a different opinion on what is considered "solid evidence".[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]

As are "probable cause" and "no unreasonable searches", which are granted as legal provisions for search and seizures under the 4th Amendment and seem to work just fine. In all cases a judge decides whether the action fits the word, be that a judge deciding if an officer's actions had probably cause, whether there is reasonable evidence to grant a warrant or whether, under the Patriot Act, solid evidence was given (unless that's in a Federal Court where the constitutionality of the Patriot Act is contested, which has yet to happen).[/COLOR] [COLOR=black] [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]

[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]Than how where the CIA able to do it to this guy? If thats what you meant by police.[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]

[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]As stated above, the Macedonian police imprisoned him, not the CIA. Unless they were violating their own arrest laws when they did that, his arrest was perfectly legitimate (the mistake aside).[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]

[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]How is some car salesman from germany a POW?[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]

If the man was in fact the terrorist sharing his namesake, then under current policies he would have qualified as one. [/COLOR] [COLOR=black] [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]Back on topic:[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]As far as him suing the US goes, if he hasn't been presented with reparations for wrongful imprisonment resulting in loss of salary, loss of future salary (if he lost his job) some punitive damages, and an apology, he is perfectly entitled to sue the US government for those things. IIRC, these usually are given, without a civil suit, to people that have been wrongfully imprisonment. Torture is arguable, but the wrongs that have already occurred deserve reparations and an apology that, if they haven’t been given already, need to be addressed.[/COLOR] [COLOR=black] [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]The man deserves reparations and has exposed flaws in the system for processing alleged terrorists: there are no contingency plans for swiftly releasing someone that is innocent, or proper plans for identifying suspects, and those flaws need to be addressed. If that means that due process should be granted in cases of extradition, then so be it. The real problem is that there aren’t any clear or good definitions of how terrorists should be treated or where they qualify in terms of combatants. IMO, if terrorists, insurgents, or whatever are captured in the field, then they qualify as POWs. If they are captured operating undercover, then they should be treated more like spies so that they are entitled to due process. It’s pretty obvious who someone is fighting for in the field but when undercover, identification and motives need to be established and proven, just like with a spy. [/COLOR]