Man sues CIA over torture claims 30 replies

Please wait...

Mephistopheles

IME and myself

50 XP

28th December 2004

0 Uploads

2,054 Posts

0 Threads

#21 14 years ago
GrimmeOn that point, what the hell were the CIA doing arresting a german patriot, outside of the US? Shouldn't this be something handled by German anti-terrorist forces? Or even Macedonian ones [if they exist].

Mr Masri was not arrested by the CIA at first. He was taken off a bus at the Tabanovce border crossing by Macedonian police/border guards because his name was similar to that of an associate of a 9/11 hijacker. Later he was handed over to the CIA by Macedonian authorities and send to Afghanistan without further verification of his identity. In fact, not only the CIA made a mistake by not checking Mr Masri's identity before they sent him to Afghanistan. The Macedonian police thought they had caught a "big fish" and didn't handle this case with the necessary precaution. Edit: Well, partially what Blood n Guts said...




Huffardo

Arrrr!

48,770 XP

29th November 2003

0 Uploads

4,632 Posts

0 Threads

#22 14 years ago

So it seems he should sue the Macedonian authorities too. This isn't going to be good news for Macedonian turism, although I suppose Macedonia isn't exactly the place to spend your vacation in anyway. It's terrible how bad the Macedonian police really has to be considering this, not are they only corrupt in giving a foreign non-US citizen away to the CIA, but they can't even check his identity. :uhm:




tusse

I want to be like Revenge

50 XP

14th March 2004

0 Uploads

363 Posts

0 Threads

#23 14 years ago

Great Grizzly: doesnt the patriot act give them the ability to do this? To pick up people and imprison them without trial? this is living proof.... Thought the patriot act was an US domestic affair only, no matter what it allows?

USMA2010 Though I don't doubt that he was taken somewhere, I'd like to see some proof that this guy was beaten and drugged. If he is just a used car salesman, he has a lot that he can get from all of this publicity. Book deals, speaking at conferences, et cetera. He could be lieing through his teath.

Living in a country were people sue for millions when drinking hot coffee at Mc Donalds (which should be seen as a privilegue at such an establishment), It's understandable you take that approach:D




MR.X`

I'm too cool to Post

50 XP

30th April 2004

0 Uploads

12,409 Posts

0 Threads

#24 14 years ago

Huffardo This isn't going to be good news for Macedonian tourism [sic].[/QUOTE]

What's that?

Huffardo not are they only corrupt in giving a foreign non-US citizen away to the CIA, but they can't even check his identity.[/QUOTE]

Corrupt? What the hell are you talking about? If this was the right guy, then he would have been a wanted criminal in the United States. Last I checked, Macedonia is an extradition treaty country, meaning US criminals in that state are liable to be arrested by that state's police forces and turned over to US authorities. We do the same for pretty much every country with a respectable human rights record.

[QUOTE=tusse]Thought the patriot act was an US domestic affair only, no matter what it allows?

Again, it is called the USA PATRIOT Act. It's an acronym. ;)

It is, how should I put it, a very powerful law enforcement tool. If you want a good overview of it's powers, click on the following link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_act

[QUOTE=tusse]Living in a country were people sue for millions when drinking hot coffee at Mc Donalds (which should be seen as a privilegue at such an establishment), It's understandable you take that approach

Despite all the powers of the McDonalds Corporation, the Central Intelligence Agency is a much more powerful organization. It is part of the most influencial body of power in the entire world, the United States Government. The court that decides that McDonalds must put warning labels on coffee and pay an old woman millions for "burns" is not going to make the federal government do anything more than write a nice apology to this man. Even that is probably not going to happen.




tusse

I want to be like Revenge

50 XP

14th March 2004

0 Uploads

363 Posts

0 Threads

#25 14 years ago
USMA2010 Despite all the powers of the McDonalds Corporation, the Central Intelligence Agency is a much more powerful organization. It is part of the most influencial body of power in the entire world, the United States Government. The court that decides that McDonalds must put warning labels on coffee and pay an old woman millions for "burns" is not going to make the federal government do anything more than write a nice apology to this man. Even that is probably not going to happen.

I wasnt referring to the relative power of McDonalds vs. CIA. I was extrapolating your assumption that this man would write books etc concerning his traumatic experiences, from the many stories of wierd lawsuits seen in your country.




MR.X`

I'm too cool to Post

50 XP

30th April 2004

0 Uploads

12,409 Posts

0 Threads

#26 14 years ago

They always, as a law, write a book. Especially when the lawsuit has political or racial implications.




Huffardo

Arrrr!

48,770 XP

29th November 2003

0 Uploads

4,632 Posts

0 Threads

#27 14 years ago

USMA2010What's that? [/quote]Well, I assume there might be a couple of tourists visiting Republic of Macedonia each year. :p

Interesting fact: 1/3 of the Macedonian workforce is unemployed according to the CIA World Factbook.

USMA2010Corrupt? What the hell are you talking about? If this was the right guy, then he would have been a wanted criminal in the United States. Last I checked, Macedonia is an extradition treaty country, meaning US criminals in that state are liable to be arrested by that state's police forces and turned over to US authorities. We do the same for pretty much every country with a respectable human rights record.

Shouldn't they have given him to Germany? Or was the right guy Macedonian and they still didn't notice the difference? (Did they tell that anywhere?)

The US doesn't have a respectable human rights record anymore, and doesn't this case add to the proof of that? Macedonia is kind of corrupt too, so why couldn't they be a little corrupt and give a German citizen to be tortured to perhaps recieve economical aid from the US? It can't be exactly easy to find proof for that, and it's rather unlikely Germany would invade them or influence EU to put financial pressure on them given the relations to the US the government wants to maintain.

Macedonia’s corrupt and inefficient judicial system requires continued attention.
Source (Please note how I tried and managed to find a source that even you could find reliable.) [QUOTE=USMA2010]Despite all the powers of the McDonalds Corporation, the Central Intelligence Agency is a much more powerful organization. It is part of the most influencial body of power in the entire world, the United States Government. The court that decides that McDonalds must put warning labels on coffee and pay an old woman millions for "burns" is not going to make the federal government do anything more than write a nice apology to this man. Even that is probably not going to happen.

I understand that probably is how it is going to be, but what I don't understand how you Americans in general don't care about changing it, or maybe they don't even think it is wrong?




MR.X`

I'm too cool to Post

50 XP

30th April 2004

0 Uploads

12,409 Posts

0 Threads

#28 14 years ago

Remember, unless otherwise noted, when I refer to this man I mean the person that the Macedonian police and the CIA thought he was, not the car salesman.

HuffardoWell, I assume there might be a couple of tourists visiting Republic of Macedonia each year. :p

Interesting fact: 1/3 of the Macedonian workforce is unemployed according to the CIA World Factbook. [/quote]

That sucks. The entire Balkans group of states is still really messed up.

HuffardoShouldn't they have given him to Germany? Or was the right guy Macedonian and they still didn't notice the difference? (Did they tell that anywhere?)[/quote]

No. He was wanted, or the person they thought he was, for crimes committed against or in the United States, not Germany. This makes him a criminal to the US, not Germany, as he carried out no acts that are illegal in his homeland. This is why fugitive murderers from the States can go to France, and the French government will not extradite them.

[QUOTE=Huffardo]The US doesn't have a respectable human rights record anymore, and doesn't this case add to the proof of that? Macedonia is kind of corrupt too, so why couldn't they be a little corrupt and give a German citizen to be tortured to perhaps recieve economical aid from the US? It can't be exactly easy to find proof for that, and it's rather unlikely Germany would invade them or influence EU to put financial pressure on them given the relations to the US the government wants to maintain.

Again, this sob-story of torture and drugging could be total bull shit. The States has a perfectly good human rights record. We are using the same interrogation methods used by all militaries at war, and even those of many police forces. These include sleep deprivation, intimidation, psychological prodding, and sodium thiopental. Drugging does not mean we are giving these guys stuff that kills them. They are sedatives that limit judgement and inhibtitions, much like alcohol. The prisoner is then simply more likely to give up information, as they just don't care about being ordered to withold it.

[quote=Hufferdo]Source (Please note how I tried and managed to find a source that even you could find reliable.)

I understand that probably is how it is going to be, but what I don't understand how you Americans in general don't care about changing it, or maybe they don't even think it is wrong?

All Americans with sense think that physical torture is wrong. Smashing someones testicles with a hammer, Gestapo style, is evil beyond all doubt. Pulling off fingernails is wrong, electrocution is wrong, et cetera. But psychological abuse, such as solitary confinement and forcing lap dances on fanatical Muslims is regarded by most, including myself, to be a fine method of interrogation. If it causes perminant psychological damage, so be it. They should have thought about the possible consequences of their actions when they picked up a gun to fight against the United States in the first place. I hold no pity for those who watched a Koran be flushed down a toilet in Guantanamo.




tusse

I want to be like Revenge

50 XP

14th March 2004

0 Uploads

363 Posts

0 Threads

#29 14 years ago
USMA2010 All Americans with sense think that physical torture is wrong. Smashing someones testicles with a hammer, Gestapo style, is evil beyond all doubt. Pulling off fingernails is wrong, electrocution is wrong, et cetera. But psychological abuse, such as solitary confinement and forcing lap dances on fanatical Muslims is regarded by most, including myself, to be a fine method of interrogation. If it causes perminant psychological damage, so be it. They should have thought about the possible consequences of their actions when they picked up a gun to fight against the United States in the first place. I hold no pity for those who watched a Koran be flushed down a toilet in Guantanamo.

On this particular case imagine that you were travelling abroad. You get arrested and extradited to some third country... You get arrested because you share your name with someone suspected of crimes in that country. Would you consider it just fine and dandy being subjected to psychological abuse, knowing they picked up the wrong guy?




Grimme

I like you

50 XP

3rd July 2004

0 Uploads

3,715 Posts

0 Threads

#30 14 years ago
[COLOR=black]The man was arrested by Macedonian forces and extradited to US custody. He wasn't arrested as a German citizen because the Macedonian police (mis)identified him as someone else. The problem here wasn't that the US arrested and kidnapped him, it’s that he was extradited without due process, which lead to the perpetuation of his misidentification.[/COLOR]

Aha thanks for clearing that up for me. So who did the US and Macedonian forces mistake this man for? Osama's estranged son?