The Carbon Comrade
14th July 2004
MOSCOW (Reuters) - President Dmitry Medvedev said on Friday NATO's promise to extend membership to Georgia was unjust, humiliating and intolerable to Russia. Likening Georgia's assault on South Ossetia to the September 11, 2001 attacks in the United States, Medvedev said he would have acted equally decisively in sending in Russian forces, even if Tbilisi already had a firm path to NATO entry. By extending a promise of future membership to Georgia and Ukraine, NATO had illustrated a willingness to take in two malfunctioning states simply to get closer to Russia's borders, Medvedev told foreign reporters during a three-hour briefing. "NATO won't become stronger this way, global tensions won't be reduced. What if Georgia had a NATO membership action plan? I would not wait for a second in making the decision I made at that time. What would the consequences be?" "They could be much worse." NATO's pact provides for the defence of member states against aggression. The membership action plan does not provide the same protection, but member states may nevertheless feel obliged to become involved. Georgian membership would be a destabilising factor, both for the Western military alliance and for the volatile Caucasus region, Medvedev said in an impassioned presentation to the annual meeting of the Valdai Club, which groups Russia experts. "The situation is not fair to Russia, it is humiliating to Russia and we are not going to tolerate this any longer." He said Georgia's attack on South Ossetia and the West's failure to back Russia had exposed as an illusion any lingering belief in Russia that the world was a just place. "The world has changed. Almost immediately after the events in the Caucasus it occurred to me that August 8 was for us almost what 9/11 was for the United States." "The United States and the whole of humanity drew many lessons from September 11, 2001. I would like to see August 8, 2008 result in many useful lessons as well." Respect for international law, a more effective global security system and a shift away from U.S. dominance of international diplomacy were among the goals he listed. Medvedev, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and many other Russian officials have publicly accused Washington of emboldening Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili to attack the breakaway region of South Ossetia last month. Russia responded by sending in its tanks. Hundreds died and tens of thousands were displaced in the five-day war. The Russian president balanced his remarks by saying he did not believe the Caucasus crisis had caused a faultline in relations between Russia and the West, which would lead to another long period of confrontation. "We don't need this," he said.
Source: Medvedev condemns Georgia NATO membership promise - Yahoo! News UK To be honest, I am in agreement with Medvedev. What business NATO has in that region is beyond me. The West have no business there either, they should stay out of business that doesn't concern them. If Georgia attacked South Ossetia (for whatever reason), the Russian's had no reason not to strike back. They were in their own right doing so I think. I cherish the day when governments of the UK, US, France, Germany and such keep out of global issues. This entire factor has got out of proportion.
I'm too cool to Post
16th October 2003
I haven't even begun to identify who's at fault. Russia or Georgia, I don't know that it's wrong to offer NATO protection to Georgia. If they're democratic they have like goals. The region is unstable...
Russia seems paranoid of NATO in a large way. Does it not seem they're acting like member ship into NATO is a prelude to attack? Does it not seem they see the Missle Shield as a prelude to attack. It just seems they're like a cornered dog. People are trying to help them but they think they're trying to harm them.
Voice of joy and sunshine
26th May 2003
This is incredibly fucking stupid, whoever came up with it should be taken out and shot repeatedly as a traitor. If Russia performs military actions in Georgia we are going to be obligated either to step into World War Three or effectively dissolve NATO.
Nemmerle;4571514This is incredibly fucking stupid, whoever came up with it should be taken out and shot repeatedly as a traitor. If Russia performs military actions in Georgia we are going to be obligated either to step into World War Three or effectively dissolve NATO.
Russia wouldn't. They would never engage a NATO country in a war, unless that country started it.(which, I would think, disobliges NATO from acting)I think Georgia's also learned it's lesson, due to the rather lackluster support from other nations. I mean sure Russia was condemned but it was more like "You shouldn't have one that, now let's get back to lunch."
I don't think it's a bad idea, I don't think it's a good idea either. I think it's a meh one.
Voice of joy and sunshine
26th May 2003
Russia's got to be asking itself some very important questions right now. Questions like, 'will anyone actually go to bat for Georgia?' From recent evidence the answer to that is probably, 'no.'
NATO has put a cramp in Russia's international politics for a long time based off the premise that it actually does something other than bark. If people aren't willing to go to bat for Georgia then Russia is presented with an opportunity to remove one of the main limiters on any force based expectations they have for the future. They've got to be deciding whether to call NATO's bluff on this one. There are pretty large reasons not to call it, but on the other hand NATO has just, rather stupidly, put a really large reason in the other column as well.
I'm too cool to Post
17th July 2003
Georgia was instigated into attacking by Russian supported, equipped, and trained South Ossetian Militias who had been skirmishing and attacking into Georgia all week.
Russia then used that as excuse to invade Georgia to grab the Poti oil pipelines thus giving Russia control of ALL oil exports from the East. This gives Russia EXTREME leverage over Western Europe politics, especially in Countries that have grown dependant on Russian oil.
Its not so much a matter of Georgia wanting to join NATO, Georgia wants nothing to do with Russia and its current attempts to reform the Soviet Union.
If they have to join NATO to get some sense of security, however false it may be , that they will not be overrun by Russia then thats what they will do.
And to certain forum members who will claim Georgia came to Russia begging and pleading to be allowed to join not everyone is in agreement with that view.
On December 22, 1800, Tsar Paul I of Russia, at the alleged request of the Georgian King George XII, signed the proclamation on the incorporation of Georgia (Kartli-Kakheti) within the Russian Empire, which was finalized by a decree on January 8, 1801, and confirmed by Tsar Alexander I on September 12, 1801. The Georgian envoy in Saint Petersburg reacted with a note of protest that was presented to the Russian vice-chancellor Prince Kurakin. In May 1801, Russian General Carl Heinrich Knorring dethroned the Georgian heir to the throne David Batonishvili and instituted a government headed by General Ivan Petrovich Lasarev.
No one has the right to tell Georgia what to do but Georgia. If Georgia wants to join NATO then its Georgia's decision.
That said, Russia has the right to feel threatened if NATO places MRBM'S, ICBM'S, strategic bombers, or large numbers of ground forces in Georgia.
The only reason people didnt go to bat for Georgia is because everyone knew what Georgia had done, despite many arguing in her favor. If Russia attacked a major country without first being provoked, they would have hellfire rained down upon them from every which way. I mean, even Georgia and Ukraine are "major" countries in the sense that people know them. Now if there's some square mile country off her borders that she takes, well that no one would notice, let alone defend.
Hey chicka bum bum!
29th August 2004
Russia has a right to be concerned. If Georgia Joins NATO then there would be missles on their border pointed right at Moscow. Plus there's alot of people within the US government who would love to start the cold war up again. Then there's this: On the one hand, I'm inclined to believe that NATO was in full support of Georgia's actions. On the other, I think Saakashvili is a bit of a loose cannon and NATO, if they are in support of what he did, basicly gave a loaded gun to an over-enthusiastic kid.
They all suck . They all did the wrong thing. Russia shouldnt have done what they did. Georgians shouldnt have prevoked it, the region is to unstable for all the borders to be properly defined inside georga, who did what to who is all ???? Theres alot of BS being put out by all sides. Nato did the wrong thing, its provocative.Why? Its all just afubar ! Do we really want to have to, seriously, ever, consider fighting a full blown war on russia's doorstep ? Do we really think we can win in that region with the distances, compared to russia ? All afubar !
29th November 2003
I suppose it is a good thing considering not much else would be likely to keep Georgia independent in the long run, they certainly aren't EU-material at this point.
pr3|)/-\t0r;4583258Russia has a right to be concerned. If Georgia Joins NATO then there would be missles on their border pointed right at Moscow. Plus there's alot of people within the US government who would love to start the cold war up again.[/QUOTE] Eh, got any proof for that?
Russia really makes it clear they'd love to bring the cold war back though...
pr3|)/-\t0r;4583258Then there's this: [/QUOTE] Yes, that is indeed an excellent example of Russian propaganda infiltrating American media, but they do still have a lot of hard work left it if they intend to fool anyone. :lol:
[QUOTE=pr3|)/-\t0r;4583258]On the one hand, I'm inclined to believe that NATO was in full support of Georgia's actions. On the other, I think Saakashvili is a bit of a loose cannon and NATO, if they are in support of what he did, basicly gave a loaded gun to an over-enthusiastic kid.
So either way Russia did nothing wrong, right? :uhm:
[QUOTE=Dexters perferated undies;4583301] Do we really want to have to, seriously, ever, consider fighting a full blown war on russia's doorstep ? Do we really think we can win in that region with the distances, compared to russia ? All afubar !
Actually I'd say there is a pretty good chance that the rest of the world would do well against Russia, they aren't another Soviet Union yet and would find it very difficult to find any significant allies willing to risk anything. I seriously doubt China would lift a finger to help Russia if they attacked another country, they haven't even recognized the Georgian separatists.