Nelson Mandela has passed away 13 replies

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Commissar MercZ

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#1 4 years ago

No articles yet but several news places are streaming an address from South Africa's president concerning his passing. Mandela had been sick for sometime now and was expected to die aa few months back, but he continued to hang on.

Expect some obituaries to start rolling in soon.




Admiral Donutz VIP Member

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#2 4 years ago

*checks the news* Indeed, well the man has achieved a lot and reached a good old age. Not many people can say that or surpass that. A symbol and example less.




Goody. VIP Member

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#3 4 years ago
Former South African president Nelson Mandela has died aged 95. The South African goverment confirmed the news. President Jacob Zuma announced the news saying: "He is now resting. He is now at peace. Our nation has lost its greatest son. Our people have lost a father."

A real shame but no unexpected. I just hope all the crap that went on when he was last ill does not mar this very sad occasion.




Commissar MercZ

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#4 4 years ago

Here's one obituary. Note the link's format- it has June 27- I suspect that many of these were previously written when the last bout of media focus on him seemed to be near death.

Nelson Mandela, South Africa's first black president, dies aged 95 | World news | theguardian.com

Spoiler: Show

David Smith, Africa correspondent, in Johannesburg theguardian.com, Thursday 5 December 2013 16.45 EST

Nelson Mandela, South Africa's first black president, has died. Photograph: Mike Hutchings/Reuters

Nelson Mandela, the towering figure of Africa's struggle for freedom and a hero to millions around the world, has died at the age of 95.

South Africa's first black president died after years of declining health that had caused him to withdraw from public life.

The death of Mandela will send South Africa deep into mourning and self-reflection 18 years after he led the country from racial apartheid to inclusive democracy.

But his passing will also be keenly felt by people around the world who revered Mandela as one of history's last great statesmen, and a moral paragon comparable with Mohandas Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

It was a transcendent act of forgiveness after spending 27 years in prison, 18 of them on Robben Island, that will assure his place in history. With South Africa facing possible civil war, Mandela sought reconciliation with the white minority to build a new democracy.

He led the African National Congress (ANC) to victory in the country's first multiracial election in 1994. Unlike other African liberation leaders who cling to power, such as Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe, he then voluntarily stepped down after one term.

Mandela – often affectionately known by his clan name, Madiba – was awarded the Nobel peace prize in 1993.

At his inauguration a year later, the new president said: "Never, never, and never again shall it be that this beautiful land will again experience the oppression of one by another ... the sun shall never set on so glorious a human achievement. Let freedom reign. God bless Africa!"

Born Rolihlahla Dalibhunga in a small village in the Eastern Cape on 18 July 1918, Mandela was given his English name, Nelson, by a teacher at his school.

Mandela joined the ANC in 1943 and became a co-founder of its youth league. In 1952, he started South Africa's first black law firm with his partner, Oliver Tambo. Mandela was a charming, charismatic figure with a passion for boxing – and an eye for women. He once said: "I can't help it if the ladies take note of me. I am not going to protest."

He married his first wife, Evelyn Mase, in 1944. They were divorced in 1957 after having three children. In 1958, he married Winnie Madikizela, who later campaigned to free her husband from jail and became a key figure in the struggle.

When the ANC was banned in 1960, Mandela went underground. After the Sharpeville massacre, in which 69 black protesters were shot dead by police, he took the difficult decision to launch an armed struggle.

He was arrested and eventually charged with sabotage and attempting to violently overthrow the government.

Conducting his own defence in the Rivonia Trial in 1964, he said: "I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities.

"It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die."

He escaped the death penalty but was sentenced to life in prison, a huge blow to the ANC that had to regroup to continue the struggle. But unrest grew in townships and international pressure on the apartheid regime slowly tightened.

Finally, in 1990, then president FW de Klerk lifted the ban on the ANC and Mandela was released from prison amid scenes of jubilation witnessed around the world.

In 1992, Mandela divorced Winnie after she was convicted on charges of kidnapping and accessory to assault.

His presidency rode a wave of tremendous global goodwill but was not without its difficulties. After leaving frontline politics in 1999, he admitted he should have moved sooner against the spread of HIV/Aids.

His son died from an Aids-related illness. On his 80th birthday, Mandela married Graça Machel, the widow of the former president of Mozambique. It was his third marriage. In total, he had six children, of whom three daughters survive: Pumla Makaziwe (Maki), Zenani and Zindziswa (Zindzi). He has 17 grandchildren and 14 great-grandchildren.

Mandela was diagnosed with prostate cancer in 2001 and retired from public life, aged 85, to be with his family and enjoy some "quiet reflection". But he remained a beloved and venerated figure with countless buildings, streets and squares named after him. His every move was scrutinised and his health was a constant source of media speculation.

Mandela continued to make occasional appearances at ANC events and attended the inauguration of the current president, Jacob Zuma. His 91st birthday was marked by the first annual "Mandela Day" in his honor.

He was last seen in public at the final of the 2010 World Cup in Johannesburg, a tournament he had helped bring to South Africa for the first time. Early in 2011, he was taken to hospital in a health scare but he recovered and was visited by Michelle Obama and her daughters a few months later.

In January 2012, he was notably missing from the ANC's centenary celebrations due to his frail condition. With other giants of the movement such as Tambo and Walter Sisulu having gone before Mandela, the defining chapter of Africa's oldest liberation movement is now closed.




Ronnie VIP Member

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#5 4 years ago

R.I.P. prisoner 46664 :(




Rikupsoni

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#6 4 years ago

Certainly a big icon in politics. South Africa is a lot more troubled and poorer than it was during the Apartheid, but atleast they're equal now, equally poor (although thousands of whites have been murdered during the last 20 years - "kill the boer").

And regarding any malign "communist terrorist" (as the ANC did bombings on government buildings for example) views, I think it's pretty unneeded when we're talking about retired politicians, as in all the hate during Thatcher's funerals was pretty ridiculous. And of course most think all kind of resistance against the apartheid was acceptable.




Commissar MercZ

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#7 4 years ago

Rikupsoni;5720698Certainly a big icon in politics. South Africa is a lot more troubled and poorer than it was during the Apartheid, but atleast they're equal now, equally poor (although thousands of whites have been murdered during the last 20 years - "kill the boer").

And regarding any malign "communist terrorist" (as the ANC did bombings on government buildings for example) views, I think it's pretty unneeded when we're talking about retired politicians, as in all the hate during Thatcher's funerals was pretty ridiculous. And of course most think all kind of resistance against the apartheid was acceptable.

I'm not really surprised you'd fall back on this shit. Already riddled with a victimization complex and false equivalencies...

The "hate" during Thatcher's funeral is expected, but there's one massive difference between Thatcher and Mandela- the later has the reputation of being a "founding father", the former not so much. Thatcher would be received the same way any polarizing figure would be within her country- even in South Africa you'll have political supporters within ANC who criticize Mandela's policies right now. President Reagan received much the same and Clinton, Bush, and Obama will too when they die. That's nothing special.

Furthermore, I think for the most part Mandela had a better international image, especially among people outside of Europe and the Americas, than Thatcher ever will.

As for the bit about South Africa being more troubled and poorer than under Apartheid- the main issue is that the ANC's promise of the economy being felt by all hasn't been fulfilled- corporations that benefitted under Apartheid continue to do so, hence the issues around the mining sector and the killings of the workers there. Inequality is bad, the richer are rich and the poor are poor... but then again, what country isn't? I'm sure if Mandela had been more aggressive against inequality, you'd be singing a different tune here.

That sounds like people who buy into the pre-civil war southern harmony bullshit. Maybe some whites who had benefitted from an economy whose productivity was clustered into a small portion of the population, but the blacks? Not so sure about that. The issue there would be the ANC not following through on their promises, but had they done that, well, you'd be here complaining about Mandela stealing the property of whites.

It's also largely because South Africa's economy is growing now that it is no longer isolated. In the Cold War the apartheid South Africa's international trade was messy and its partners limited. That's different now- growth is from there, but growth isn't being felt by all. How this is particularly an issue of Mandela's though, I don't know. People like Jacob Zuma and Thabo Mbeki will be the ones most responsible for those ultimately, as Mandela served a short term as president, in a transitional point much less.

As for troubled, the main issue there is in crime. I'd chalk that up to inequality and such, but South Africa under apartheid wasn't exactly peaceful either, be it forced relocations of populations into bantustans, or border wars along Zimbabwe and Mozambique borders, operations in Namibia or Angola, and so on.

Lastly, the bit about "thousands of whites" being killed, not withstanding that is a gross exaggeration, white-black violence in South Africa was never state-condoned. You had figures like Julius Malema and the youth wing he was in push that song, and they were pushed out and ostracized. Mandela was in a position to utilize the state mechanisms to oppress and destroy whites in the same way the apartheid government did to the blacks and other "colored" peoples in South Africa- and he didn't.

Is there racial problems? Yes, one would expect it considering the history in the same way the US has had to deal with the civil rights movement. There are afrikaaners and the like who've left the country to pursue other avenues because of attempts to level the playing field, or because of crime, or live in fortified gated communities for the same reason. But that wasn't because of a policy instituted by Mandela- in fact some of the more hardline members of his group criticized him for being too reconciliatory with the European population.

The media isn't giving Mandela a free pass at all compared to Thatcher. They're just acknowledging considering his circumstances, he could've been much more different coming out of jail. Instead of exploding racial violence, he tried to push reconciliation. Instead of an economic upheaval as he promised, South Africa maintained a market economy and didn't step on the toes of the corporations working there. When Robert Mugabe dies, look at how the media will treat his passing with thinly-veiled swipes and criticisms of his record, compared to Mandela's, despite their similar circumstances.

And yes, the ANC had an armed wing and they were in insurrection against the Apartheid government. I don't really see how your bit on the end is relevant here though. The apartheid government was deplorable and it's not really surprising that ultimately armed resistance developed against it- peaceful means were exhausted and it had to move to a different arena.

Maybe a state founded on racial segregation isn't a big deal to you, but people won't be mourning the passing of the apartheid regime now or ever.




Rikupsoni

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#8 4 years ago

Commissar MercZ;5720779 The "hate" during Thatcher's funeral is expected, but there's one massive difference between Thatcher and Mandela- the later has the reputation of being a "founding father", the former not so much. Thatcher would be received the same way any polarizing figure would be within her country- even in South Africa you'll have political supporters within ANC who criticize Mandela's policies right now. President Reagan received much the same and Clinton, Bush, and Obama will too when they die. That's nothing special.

Furthermore, I think for the most part Mandela had a better international image, especially among people outside of Europe and the Americas, than Thatcher ever will.

Well, I could point out that Thatcher was an important figure to normal citizens in Eastern Europe when they were liberated from communist dictatorships in the early 1990s. Of course I'm counting you lot out, since you consider reeking Soviet communism "progressive". In Ukraine, Russia, the Baltics, Poland... But no, she isn't as famous. My point being was that when someone has retired from politics 20 years ago it isn't a time to organize a personal hate campaign during the funerals.

And yes, the ANC had an armed wing and they were in insurrection against the Apartheid government. I don't really see how your bit on the end is relevant here though. The apartheid government was deplorable and it's not really surprising that ultimately armed resistance developed against it- peaceful means were exhausted and it had to move to a different arena.

That's right, they used bombings to achieve their goals. As far as I know, Nelson Mandela never claimed to have been a fully non-violent activist, not even after the Apartheid to polish his image or something. That's respectable. Was terrorism ethically acceptable? Most likely, although it leaves a bad taste in mouth. But I wouldn't just pass all the moral questions of ANC's violence with a simple shrug.

Lastly, the bit about "thousands of whites" being killed, not withstanding that is a gross exaggeration, white-black violence in South Africa was never state-condoned. You had figures like Julius Malema and the youth wing he was in push that song, and they were pushed out and ostracized. Mandela was in a position to utilize the state mechanisms to oppress and destroy whites in the same way the apartheid government did to the blacks and other "colored" peoples in South Africa- and he didn't.

Mentioning Julius Malema, you must have heard the slogan "kill the boer, kill the farmer" that has even brought convictions of inciting racial hatred to several ANC politicians. The most accurate figure of white farmers killed in rather racially motivated murders stands in 3,000, how is it an exaggeration? Of course not all murders are racist and there is a lot of general criminality in South Africa, but given the fact that such agitation exists even from top ANC politicians, you can't really deny the factor.

Maybe a state founded on racial segregation isn't a big deal to you, but people won't be mourning the passing of the apartheid regime now or ever.

My only view on the subject is that the Apartheid was ethically wrong and selfish, but that it was pragmatically a solution for Afrikaners to keep a high-standard of living for themselves until it became unacceptable. I just don't think there's "pure evil" in politics that do completely irrational things, they had their reasons too. Culturally, a tribal society that is still strong in South Africa is pretty far away from an industrialized Western country that the Apartheid-era SA had. It lacks social cohesion and they thought they can't live together due to cultural differences and social divisions. Simply, all the pre-1994 instutions were overloaded and burdened and the supporters of the Apartheid, being selfish as they were, knew the standard of living would decrease for them and it would become a dysfunctional country. Reading news that 1/3 of South Africans have HIV, the society is just so hopeless in so many ways.




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#9 4 years ago

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Commissar MercZ

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#10 4 years ago
Rikupsoni;5720793Well, I could point out that Thatcher was an important figure to normal citizens in Eastern Europe when they were liberated from communist dictatorships in the early 1990s. Of course I'm counting you lot out, since you consider reeking Soviet communism "progressive". In Ukraine, Russia, the Baltics, Poland... But no, she isn't as famous. My point being was that when someone has retired from politics 20 years ago it isn't a time to organize a personal hate campaign during the funerals.

Why did you bring up Thatcher though? A. No one even mentioned her, and B. There is no comparison between her and Mandela. The people of Eastern Europe FREED THEMSELVES, not because Thatcher handed it to them.

As for your bit at the end- that's just idiotic- disagree with my views, but going immature like this? And here you are going on about how people should be respectful when politicians die... and yet....

That's right, they used bombings to achieve their goals. As far as I know, Nelson Mandela never claimed to have been a fully non-violent activist, not even after the Apartheid to polish his image or something. That's respectable. Was terrorism ethically acceptable? Most likely, although it leaves a bad taste in mouth. But I wouldn't just pass all the moral questions of ANC's violence with a simple shrug.

Are you really trying to go along this? The Apartheid regime was nasty- peaceful resistance was not possible. Botha quite clearly proclaimed that South Africa will and always be a white nation- against a political establishment like that, peaceful resistance was impossible. What's the point of this?

Mentioning Julius Malema, you must have heard the slogan "kill the boer, kill the farmer" that has even brought convictions of inciting racial hatred to several ANC politicians. The most accurate figure of white farmers killed in rather racially motivated murders stands in 3,000, how is it an exaggeration? Of course not all murders are racist and there is a lot of general criminality in South Africa, but given the fact that such agitation exists even from top ANC politicians, you can't really deny the factor.

Yes, that is why I brought it up. However, how this relates to Mandela beyond occupying the similar party, I'm not sure. You're still grasping at straws here- show me how this is state-condoned. This is making a false equivalence between apartheid and what ever some more nationalist-minded members of the ANC have in mind. I suppose you should also look how the ANC became a big-tent party owing to its domination of the resistance- so you will get different people in there.

What Mandela has to do with this is my question. Considering Mandela enforced and made into principle a non-racial basis to the party, as well as in effect- if you keep track of any of these politicians they were drummed out- Malema for his part went and made a new party because of his expulsion.

If you knew there were 3000 (much less since the end of Apartheid...), then you would've said that from the get go. However, the point remains- can you show that this is state-condoned? Being unable to deal with the violence- rooted to the fact by and large most agricultural land is still owned by whites- is another problem. Mandela has nothing to do with this- in fact, he had created groups to address this before they were disbanded 10 years ago by Mbeki.

No one is denying that there is still racial tension, but to blame this on Mandela? Like there's nothing here to do with the legacy of apartheid, where much of the land and corporate ownership is still unequal? Again, you complain about this irrational hate towards Thatcher than pull this in here? I mean why not look at how murder rate among blacks is higher in South Africa? Or that many rich blacks, like Malema, live in gated communities like their white counterparts to avoid theft? Maybe something to do with inequality? Or is that not important...?

South Africa has a lot to deal with, but it has to deal with it without being under the boot of repression. These are things it has to sort out as it grows into a state- inequality is an issue that is hurt the ANC's image, and it'll likely be its downfall like its Congress counterpart in India. But does that mean what came before is better? No.

My only view on the subject is that the Apartheid was ethically wrong and selfish, but that it was pragmatically a solution for Afrikaners to keep a high-standard of living for themselves until it became unacceptable. I just don't think there's "pure evil" in politics that do completely irrational things, they had their reasons too. Culturally, a tribal society that is still strong in South Africa is pretty far away from an industrialized Western country that the Apartheid-era SA had. It lacks social cohesion and they thought they can't live together due to cultural differences and social divisions. Simply, all the pre-1994 instutions were overloaded and burdened and the supporters of the Apartheid, being selfish as they were, knew the standard of living would decrease for them and it would become a dysfunctional country. Reading news that 1/3 of South Africans have HIV, the society is just so hopeless in so many ways.

Yes, you can rationalize the South African regime all you want, but that doesn't excuse what it did. You can go all you want about not being "objectively evil", but that would be the same as me trying to excuse the Soviet Union for its actions because it did a few things alright (if any)- just as much as no one should ignore the gulag or repression in the USSR or China, it should not be excused that a government ostrachized a large part of the population for its own benefit, used brutality and relocations to control them, and denied they were even human beings.

And yet some how apartheid South Africa was good, because it's economy apparently was better in your eyes? Even though South Africa is a G20 nation and ranked among the BRICS nations of being a potential power in the future?

How was South Africa any more "industrialized" than it is now? Point to me where industry has left or it has collapsed ala Iraq? Again, South Africa was isolated under apartheid- aside from some trade with the US and other allies, it had difficulty truly being accepted abroad to the point that eventually many of its allies ended up cutting ties.

You seem to have trouble understanding how a country has to change when it suddenly has to incorporate a large segment of the population it formerly ignored. This was the same problem that occurred after slavery- does that mean the antebellum south was preferable or better however? Hell no.

If anything, Mandela is criticized by some within his group for not being aggressive enough- and if he had done just that, then in all likelihood you could be complaining right now about how the country collapsed on itself like Zimbabwe after property expropriation.

Oh those poor tribal blacks, if only they had the enlightened leadership of the apartheid government they'd have had everything figured out. They wouldn't have to deal with poverty or get infected with HIV (lol what really?). My god my head just hurts knowing you actually fall for this.

Mandela has overcome a lot- and came out of the ordeal as good as he could've been without unleashing violence or other aggressive actions to impose the promises the ANC promised is remarkable. But no, let's complain that he overthrew the apartheid government.




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