Occupy Wall Street 39 replies

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Nittany Tiger Forum Mod

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#21 7 years ago

Some of these demands would do us good while the others would destroy our country.

$20/hr min. wage can't happen (part of #1). Small businesses would vanish under bankruptcy if that happened. You'd get smaller markets and less jobs as a result.

Free college education (#4) can't happen. Colleges get a lot of their money from tuition especially now.

Demand #5 can happen slowly.

Demand #6 and #7 aren't economically possibly sadly. We need to fix our debt problems first (and fast).

Demand #9 is a massive mistake.

Demand #11 is a massive mistake and would likely destroy our economy.

Demand #12 would eventually destroy our economy. We need credit reporting agencies to police loans and allow loans to be given only to people that can pay them back.

I also agree with one of the comments about separating Big Business and the government. Lobbyism is the root of many problems in this country. Hiring economists that would help the govt institute policies that benefit all classes would be better than allowing lobbyism.




Crazy Wolf VIP Member

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#22 7 years ago

Not possible, or they'd require higher taxes?




MrFancypants Forum Admin

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#23 7 years ago

Ending free trade? The downsizing of the economy that would result from this would probably eat up any additional jobs in manufacturing that would be created.

I'm not sure what effects banning all private health insurances would have, but I doubt that it would be a very good one.

Number 3 sounds a reasonable demand on paper, but just requesting a standard like that can be dangerous in itself as you can see in Greece: politicians pay for unrealistic expectations by accumulating debts until the whole house comes crashing down. Still, some social security for those out of a job and those who need healthcare is possible.

Free college education: we had that in Germany for a long time and it worked alright. Except that our universities were sub-par in international comparisons. You can't have everything.

Numer 5 sounds good - shipping most of our money to Saudi Arabia sucks, especially if we could develop some cool electro-cars and geothermal powerplants instead which create lots of jobs and exportable goods and technologies.

6 is stupid. Just because spending money on infrastructure helped during the great depression doesn't mean that it'll help now. The US already has decent infrastructure, so any money spent on it won't have the same effect. In the end you have to pay for it with increased taxes or take the risks of accumulating too much debt.

Disabling all nuclear powerplants isn't realistic in the short term. Again the problem remains where to get that money.

Open borders doesn't sound like such a great idea either. Especially if you combine it with minimum living standards.

Removing all debt world-wide is also one of those demands that has the potential to destroy economies and not just the US economy.

With demands like these the protesters won't be taken seriously. Hopefully. It seems to be the same kind of knee-jerk reaction to an economic downturn you can see in other places.




Guest

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#24 7 years ago

The list of demands, or rather “recommendations/suggestions”. I really don’t think many of these will go very far. Typical fucking convenience motivated era... They want the structure, without the months of construction required for said structure. Convenience and desire first, realistic expectations and considerations, second. They should be focusing on smaller things, things that are doable. Instead of rebuilding the nation all at once, wishing this utopian fantasy into existence out of frustrated air.. They should focus on what many showed up for. Auditing the fed, returning to the gold standard, holding banks and CEO’s accountable for white collar crimes. Ya know, those selling points from the beginning? The adbusters campaign?

Don’t get me wrong, I understand the reasoning. I can’t and won’t expect more from a generation raised be tv's. I’m happy that something is actually happening. However misguided these attempts may be, at least they're trying. The lemmings are waking, so too speak. With that said, I hope that its not all derailed by a grandstanding hippie agenda of; “While we’re at it, why don’t we…”

Since these protests started, global revolution has been broadcasting live streams from it. I’ve watching it from nearly the beginning when the stream only had several hundred viewers, too now with nearly ten thousand, in just over two weeks. Statistically, that's not a lot considering, but it shows that this resonates with a lot of people. There's potential, and it’s gaining ground everyday. Like a fire, in the wind… with most of us now waiting to see what the government rain will be.

It might be linked in here already, but in case it’s not. Worth looking at from time too time. Quite a few of the top players organizing leadership types have made appearances; globalrevolution - live streaming video powered by Livestream

If I had to guess what the rain would be. This would be it. Examining the Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act -- In These Times Somewhere in this bill, it states that promoting social change, is an act of terrorism, or thereabouts. Haven't really checked it out, but it sounds like something we would criminalize. Change.

This isn't really just an American issue. If you look at the global stage. Things are buzzing... everywhere..

Spoiler: Show
and many more locations..

Almost all of these protests have a common denominator. Disapproval of their own governments/states/regimes, and debt. It can't be a coincidence that so many uprisings are occurring simultaneously the world over, can it?




Warborg

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#25 7 years ago

I like how idiots like Michael Moron are fueling the flames on this. Can't people see that he's part of the problem?

Anyways. I'm all over the map on this. I can agree with their reasoning behind it. Government bailing out the big corporations just so they can keep screwing over the little man has gone on too long.

It's hard for me to ever support protesters as they almost always involve violence and breaking the law.

I'm sorry but I don't see the government giving in to any of these demands.

I'll have to sit and watch how this unfolds.




Roaming East

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#26 7 years ago

The infrastructure in the US is great if you live in a major city. It sucks hairy balls anywhere else. I can only speak for the entirety of the South from Texas, through the gulf states up into Maryland, but the infrastructure here sucks. Roads and highways falling apart, massive congestion in any metro area. Inefficient mass transport (when available) crap electrical grids and expensive, poorly maintained internet capability.




Commissar MercZ

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#27 7 years ago

Here's something interesting I noticed with the bridge story.

The protesters say they were allowed to cross the bridge and were even 'escorted across', only to see police vans waiting. This would be an exact case of kettling.

Police and city authorities on the other hand say that they went onto there and responded to it once they blocked traffic. This is the story most of the media has been going with.

Videos posted by participants seem to go with the demonstrator's story. It's clear the police went with them and then threw the hammer at them once they were put in a position they needed.

Here's an image that's been going around regarding the way major news outlets modified their story once the police assumed control.

320142_10150407595243949_720593948_10269641_1174336005_n.jpg

The math is wrong but the point stands.




Demonseed VIP Member

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#28 7 years ago

Sorry, but if anyone expects me to feel sorry for these people or have the least bit of sympathy for them, they're going to be very disappointed.

The vast majority of the people up there don't even know why they are there. They're turning up because that's what everyone else is doing, or because they think they might get on TV, or maybe even get some free food or a handout from it. Whatever goal they may have begun this with, it's turned into a farce. To be honest, it's laughable at this point.

Reading that list of demands makes me laugh all the harder. Let's look at how humorous they are:

1. What's a living wage? For years, I made due on minimum wage, which at the time under $5 an hour. I did that by cutting back on luxuries and only spending what I had to. I was a poor college kid with no stpiends and student loans hanging over me, but somehow I managed to pay my rent, my bills, and feed myself. The minimum wage law isn't a great law, but I won't be one that campaign vociferously for or against it; however, the idea of raising it to $20 an hour is ludicrous.

2. Single payer? HAH. As if health care costs aren't high enough, these folks want to force them higher, or force artificial limits on what care can be provided. Not worth discussing. The #1 largest cause of high health care costs right now is pointless government regulation. How's single payer going to help that?

3. A guaranteed living wage regardless of employment? Why would anyone work? If no one wants to work, who pays the taxes to fund the guaranteed wages? Stupid pipe dream thought up by brainless people.

4. Free college education? Why would you need a college education if you can get paid for not working? (See #3) Also, who's going to provide this education to you if no one is around to pay for it?

5. This is one of the most rational things on this list, but this is already happening. You want to keep money in the US and reduce dependence on foreign oil? Lift the pointless drilling moratoriums on offshore and ANWR. Watch the price of gas plummet.

6. Where the heck are we going to find a trillion bucks to spend on infrastructure?

7. Where the heck are we going to find a trillion bucks to spend on ecological restoration? The money is not there. Besides, you know what the single best way to preserve the environment is? Let someone own the land. People don't destroy things they own (or at least 99% of them don't).

8. Not sure what the goal is here. I think the issue of racial and gender equality is important, but I think we're a lot closer to having it than most people do.

9. Open borders? The Mexican cartels thank you for this one.

10. Right, because international elections like those that perpetually elected Saddam Hussein, Qaddafi and Ahmadinejad are above reproach, right? My wife works in the election office. The number of errors they've had in the years she's worked there can be counted on one hand with 4 fingers left over. If you're worried about voter fraud, worry about fraudulent registrations, not fraudulent ballots. That's where the issue is. A voter identification amendment would be a much better way to solve this one.

11. HAH! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The economy of the world would collapse overnight. Look, just because you bought a $300,000 house and a Lexus when you made $35,000 a year doesn't meant that someone should just let you off the hook. Personal responsibility - look into it.

12. OK, I don't like credit reporting agencies either, but they are a necessary evil in a credit/debt- based economy. Do away with those, and even those of us with good credit can't get a loan anymore.

13. Unions are a dead concept. No one who isn't in one already wants to be. The last poll I saw said that less than 9% of non-union workers had any interest in joining a union. Companies know that if they pay workers competitively and offer good benefits, they won't want to join a union. Guess what - they're right! Unions are an outdated concept.

Their final point - granting these demands wouldn't create "so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy," rather, it would plunge this country into a dark time that would make the Great Depression of the 30's feel like a Girl Scout picnic.

It's quite laughable, or it would be if it weren't so damn sad. What made this country great was people who got off their asses and worked for things. You think Steve Jobs got handed millions of dollars when he was 25? Hell no! He went out and invented a product that people were willing to pay for. He worked hard, and he was rewarded for it. That the value set that America was founded on.

Amusingly, I doubt you'll hear those folks protesting on Wall St. calling out Steve Jobs, but if they want to be consistent, they should be. He was one of the greatest capitalists of all time, and that's antithetical to everything this bunch on Wall St. claims to stand for.

It's sad to see us fallen to this point. Let's hope the next generation can turn out a little better.




Pethegreat VIP Member

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#29 7 years ago
This is one of the most rational things on this list, but this is already happening. You want to keep money in the US and reduce dependence on foreign oil? Lift the pointless drilling moratoriums on offshore and ANWR. Watch the price of gas plummet.

The oil price is set by the international market. You can drill all you want in the US, oil will still be around $80-100/bbl because it is the most profitable without driving people to alternatives. If the US produces more oil, OPEC will cut production to keep prices around $80-100/bbl. The only way you can beat the system is to take oil off of the commodities market, or drastically reduce demand for oil.




Commissar MercZ

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#30 7 years ago
Demonseed;5569671 The vast majority of the people up there don't even know why they are there. They're turning up because that's what everyone else is doing, or because they think they might get on TV, or maybe even get some free food or a handout from it. Whatever goal they may have begun this with, it's turned into a farce. To be honest, it's laughable at this point.

...

What? Have you even looked at what are they doing or just what the lookity box is spewing out to you.

People don't just get out onto the streets to because 'everyone' is doing it. There are conditions people are angry about

1. What's a living wage? For years, I made due on minimum wage, which at the time under $5 an hour. I did that by cutting back on luxuries and only spending what I had to. I was a poor college kid with no stpiends and student loans hanging over me, but somehow I managed to pay my rent, my bills, and feed myself. The minimum wage law isn't a great law, but I won't be one that campaign vociferously for or against it; however, the idea of raising it to $20 an hour is ludicrous.

The minimum wage is unworkable currently. These people aren't asking to live in luxury, but the way wages work currently

In other countries, at least 'developed' ones, minimum wage is actually something that you can live on if you work. Here, it is doubtful, considering all the other fees that you might run into. Taxes, utilities, rent/mortgages, servicing loans for cars and education,

2. Single payer? HAH. As if health care costs aren't high enough, these folks want to force them higher, or force artificial limits on what care can be provided. Not worth discussing. The #1 largest cause of high health care costs right now is pointless government regulation. How's single payer going to help that?

Come down to Texas and see what happened when you abide by the 'free market' ideals. It's hardly as black and white as you are seeing it as 'government'.

Rick Perry Health Care | Texas healthcare system withering under Gov. Rick Perry - Los Angeles Times

This same logic drives Texas's healthcare system, which has turned it into a nightmare. It's fine if you are rich and well off though.

The request is reasonable since, you know, much of the developed world has it, and yet the country that is supposedly a superpower and the most industrialized can't even get around it.

Yet there is, apparently, no problem bailing out banks or continue working with them all the while.

3. A guaranteed living wage regardless of employment? Why would anyone work? If no one wants to work, who pays the taxes to fund the guaranteed wages? Stupid pipe dream thought up by brainless people.

That's not the way they are looking at it- but rather, we can't have such a stratification between say a teacher or desk worker and a trust-fund CEO.

Second, the GMI isn't simply a handout, but a determined system over how the markets are operating and employment situations. It doesn't mean simply 'sit on your ass and do nothing' as you seem to envision it.

We've had the concept proposed most strongly by President Nixon- hardly the type that would like 'hand-outs' considering his position against hippies and the like.

If you are ranting about 'hand-outs' as it seems, then this would make sense. Why bother working if all you are making is less than what unemployment even gives?

This is a bit far-fetched of all of them on account of few nations having been able to employ this, but again, it's from the perspective that the government has been willing to stick its self out for its corporate backers, and yet, for the rest- nothing.

4. Free college education? Why would you need a college education if you can get paid for not working? (See #3) Also, who's going to provide this education to you if no one is around to pay for it?

You don't understand the principle of GMI as the last point showed.

However, the college education provision isn't unreasonable, at least from public universities standpoint. The rate we are going universities are going to get more pricey and unreachable for most people.

5. This is one of the most rational things on this list, but this is already happening. You want to keep money in the US and reduce dependence on foreign oil? Lift the pointless drilling moratoriums on offshore and ANWR. Watch the price of gas plummet.

It's not sustainable though. Those sources will run out too, and in the end the only people that benefit are the corporations that have been pushing that from the start.

6. Where the heck are we going to find a trillion bucks to spend on infrastructure?

The same place they apparently found it for TARP and the so-called "Second Bailout". Why is it available then, but not now? As far as I know, the country was in debt then as it is now? Or are the services only available to the elite in this country?

7. Where the heck are we going to find a trillion bucks to spend on ecological restoration? The money is not there. Besides, you know what the single best way to preserve the environment is? Let someone own the land. People don't destroy things they own (or at least 99% of them don't).

And yet that same money was somehow available for TARP and the second bailout?

As for private ownership of land, it rarely works like that. Some may decide to preserve it, but ultimately the point of owning something is to make a profit off it at some point. And for most that means exploitation and exploitation of what resources are there.

In India this has led to many people's livelihoods squashed out as they are shoved off their lands in favor of multi-nationals to develop and push through their agenda in the government. Or ranchers and loggers in the Amazon.

Now if you want that same scenario replicated here, be my guest. But it's not good for 'national' concerns in the long run. At least as far as preservation and sustainability goes.

8. Not sure what the goal is here. I think the issue of racial and gender equality is important, but I think we're a lot closer to having it than most people do.

Racial equality? In some ways yes, in someways no. Gender quality is still a distant one though- this doesn't merely mean male and females, but sexual orientation as well. And the US is still a ways off from achieving that goal.

9. Open borders? The Mexican cartels thank you for this one.

Mexican cartels are already pretty happy with the way things are. Little difference in whether it gets tighter or looser.

But their point is that these borders are already 'open' for trade as it is. Yet people are considered a lower status than commodities.

10. Right, because international elections like those that perpetually elected Saddam Hussein, Qaddafi and Ahmadinejad are above reproach, right? My wife works in the election office. The number of errors they've had in the years she's worked there can be counted on one hand with 4 fingers left over. If you're worried about voter fraud, worry about fraudulent registrations, not fraudulent ballots. That's where the issue is. A voter identification amendment would be a much better way to solve this one.

It's like you are reading from a token book of the tea party. Not just government regulation but now fraud through fraudulent registrations.

This issue has been blown out of proportion by certain media outlets, and it's rather stupid to fixate on that particular aspect.

Our elections are problematic because as they currently stand, it only encourages a two party system and machine politics that makes it difficult for That is a pressing concern for anyone, regardless

11. HAH! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The economy of the world would collapse overnight. Look, just because you bought a $300,000 house and a Lexus when you made $35,000 a year doesn't meant that someone should just let you off the hook. Personal responsibility - look into it.

Where was 'personal responsibility' when the banks crashed and asked for bailouts? TARP was passed rather quickly with out much debate really or media brainwashing around it.

See, you are always getting it into these nightmare scenarios. That they are going to get the house or car they can't afford- the

12. OK, I don't like credit reporting agencies either, but they are a necessary evil in a credit/debt- based economy. Do away with those, and even those of us with good credit can't get a loan anymore.

Credit ratings have really been nothing more than hell on people trying to get what they want. And it's not just at the consumer level but all over the place. They have total control in that regard and it makes it very chaotic in instances. Even with rating sovereign debt their practices are questionable.

13. Unions are a dead concept. No one who isn't in one already wants to be. The last poll I saw said that less than 9% of non-union workers had any interest in joining a union. Companies know that if they pay workers competitively and offer good benefits, they won't want to join a union. Guess what - they're right! Unions are an outdated concept.

Unions are a dead concept but it really hasn't done much good for the country. As things stand total flexibility goes with management and such

I'm not sure if it's as you see it either. Most Right-to-Work states that have pretty much eliminated unions as a force have created labor markets that are unfavorable to those considered among the ranks of 'working' Americans. That is people who aren't professionals.

Real Income has stagnated in the past decades, and that's really because as a force the people who 'work' have no real means to get their demands out. Divide and conquer is what's going on right now with regards to the labor market.

Their final point - granting these demands wouldn't create "so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy," rather, it would plunge this country into a dark time that would make the Great Depression of the 30's feel like a Girl Scout picnic.

It's quite laughable, or it would be if it weren't so damn sad. What made this country great was people who got off their asses and worked for things. You think Steve Jobs got handed millions of dollars when he was 25? Hell no! He went out and invented a product that people were willing to pay for. He worked hard, and he was rewarded for it. That the value set that America was founded on.

People would work if there was jobs. If there was opportunity too. Many of those who are working are arguably underemployed and not receiving what they should get.

By your logic, this this country was 'great' because of hard work. Unfortunately as things are right now hard work is becoming increasingly an unrealistic way to even get ahead now. As power gets concentrated in to smaller and smaller hands, it's difficult for 'hard work' to even matter anymore.

The bit about the explosion of jobs is unrealistic though, I agree, but considering how things are right now with the one ended relationship of the state to the businesses, it's not an unrealistic demand to try and fight to bring things back to a more even footing.

Amusingly, I doubt you'll hear those folks protesting on Wall St. calling out Steve Jobs, but if they want to be consistent, they should be. He was one of the greatest capitalists of all time, and that's antithetical to everything this bunch on Wall St. claims to stand for.

Steve Jobs and the other 'self-made' clowns were only one of hundreds of thousands of Americans. There are plenty of Americans who work their ass of daily and rarely get- in my opinion- what they deserve.

Steve Jobs is hardly much of a saint anyways. Considering the way much of our products were made in China in hellish conditions- as the FoxConn suicides would attest to- or the conflict minerals in Africa- is hardly behavior to be applauded. Yes, Steve Jobs is among the greatest capitalists of all time, but that's solely because he saw profit over everything else. Nothing more.

And that's not really something that benefits a lot of people, especially if you were on the wrong end of it.

It's sad to see us fallen to this point. Let's hope the next generation can turn out a little better.

Every old far going back to the Greek philosophers complained about their youth. This really isn't anything new.

You took these points the wrong anyways. They don't expect this to be granted anyways but simply to present a challenge to the powers that be and get people thinking over what the government really operates as, and it's relationship to corporations and the financial sector.

They are doing something about it. And that's really credit to them. Plenty of people I think simply restrict their action to the realm of the internet and act passive on the outside.

The big danger to me really is the movement being co-opted and turned into something benign. Not because of the way they are acting, but that this is what happens every time an act of protest kicks off. Political and interest groups will move into action and find a way to do so. There's already been signs of that with certain politicians moving into action.