pacifism 37 replies

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themanclaw

Self-Righteous Bullshit

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25th September 2006

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#1 10 years ago

This topic came up when my brother and I were chilling in the TV room while I was playing Call of Duty 4. He asked me the question,

"if a guy was trying to kill you, would you kill him?" "Of course" I say without much thought or hesitation as I blow the face off of some random terrorist. "than technically, your not a pacifist" "never said I was'

I though I'd post this on the forums...

When is it OK to kill someone? (if ever)




homo sine domino

 

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1st September 2002

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#2 10 years ago

The goal of self defence should be to fend of an immediate attack and to stop the opponent from carrying out further attacks.

Lethal force is not always necessary. As little force as possible, as much as necessary.




colonel_bob

Here & There

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4th June 2004

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#3 10 years ago

When its ok depends on your own view of morality. For me, personally, I would say it would be ok for me to kill someone if: 1) They're about to kill me or I have a pretty good reason to suspect they're planning it, 2) More generally, if I'm saving my own ass (the "kill this guy or we'll shoot you and your family" type of deal), and 3) I'm saving other people by doing so (think something out of 24) I'm sure there are other appropriate situations, but that's just me. By the way, isn't pacifism supposed to be trying to avoid violence at all costs, and not just bending over and taking it, as it were? Or am I wrong about that?




Amy

Naughty

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28th October 2004

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#4 10 years ago

Some people get carried away with such things.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

Voice of joy and sunshine

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26th May 2003

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#5 10 years ago

It’s okay whenever, you may as well go in for some rape and theft while you’re at it if morality is all you’re worried about. If it doesn’t trouble you to sleep at night doing those sorts of things you’d be quite right to say there’s no valid moral argument to be levelled against you.

As far as I'm concerned most people in Western society are killers and worse simply because they make the choice not to save those they could save were they to expend their resources towards such an end. You make a choice and people die as a consequence of it, or get raped, beaten, whatever depravity is visited upon them because of the lack of social order or other environmental conditions you’ve allowed to take place. We kill and rape and worse over loaves of bread we don’t really need, cups of coffee, the big SUV we drive, the forty inch plasma in our back rooms and the computers we enjoy. End of the day if you put your mind to it, certainly as an adult if not as a child, you could be saving a lot of lives and not just from death. All this morality crap people come out with seems somehow frail and hypocritical when they’re standing on a street running with the blood we’ve spilled and all the while protesting to believe in the value of life and freedom to help themselves believe it’s not there.

It doesn't trouble me though, never has, which is maybe why I don’t buy into that whole morality stuff too readily. Right and wrong are so much fictional bullshit to keep things all neatly in line. At most all our moral philosophy can say is, “if you want 'X' then 'Y' doesn't make a lot of sense,” and fair enough, murder within our society doesn't make a lot of sense for most people. But that's not the same as it being innately wrong, indeed it’s a self interested argument from pragmatism more than it’s an argument about what is right and what is wrong in a moral sense. What is right and wrong at the end of the day beyond that? Does it even exist? Can you pick it up; hand it to me; parade it up and down the street like some toy mascot? Of course not, it’s not there to do anything with. It’s impossible even to conceive of a thing that could land a real moral duty upon us. There is no real right and wrong, only pragmatism, which is, let’s face it, no more than self interested reason. It's never right or wrong to kill since the concepts are meaningless. But without any right or wrong it's always ‘okay’ to kill someone if it fits in with your goals simply because it can never be morally wrong.

Hell everything’s only ever ‘okay’ morally: rape, murder, charity and love; the deepest darkest desires of the human heart and the most noble intentions to which we can aspire are all alike. Try finding a moral basis to deny it and you’ll find it only ever comes down to pragmatism even among the old Abrahamic religions and before that, “Don’t do this or you’ll go to hell,” doesn’t have anything to do with right and wrong.

See I get to use that argument a lot in debate, it works well and it’s something I think is true. Right and wrong are just convenient simplifications of greater concepts created by the majority of society to control itself.

But here’s the bit I don’t say too often: With no greater concepts or right or wrong to appeal to and back us up being willing to fight for what you believe in is all the more important. Don't forget that at the end of the day people like me want a nice quiet society where we don't have to worry about people getting killed at random and upsetting the balance of our relatively quiet social order. And that because we want that and don’t have any qualms about the sort of lives that we all lead, the violence involved in those lives, we're quiet willing to help enforce our particular want for a quiet world with violence completely unlimited by anything except pragmatism and occasionally the law as an extension of that. Not you understand on the principles of right and wrong but on the basis of what we believe in as a desirable world. After all as far as we’re concerned we’ve slaughtered, raped and otherwise exploited hundreds if not thousands of people we could have saved, what’s one more if that doesn’t bother us?

Guess what I'm trying to say here is no-one can tell you what you’ve done is wrong with any sort of moral backing, only you can ever do that and you’ve got to consult your conscience and what you want out of life to find it. How you want to feel at the end of the day, (even knowing that your feelings are in large part forced on you by society, the way you’ve grown up and the biology you were given, it doesn’t make them any less real.) But don't expect to get away with it scott free just because it wasn't wrong. Lots of us don’t have a social order that works on the principles of whether you really deserve punishment or not.




themanclaw

Self-Righteous Bullshit

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25th September 2006

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#6 10 years ago
As far as I'm concerned most people in Western society are killers and worse simply because they make the choice not to save those they could save were they to expend their resources towards such an end. You make a choice and people die as a consequence of it, or get raped, beaten, whatever depravity is visited upon them because of the lack of social order or other environmental conditions you’ve allowed to take place. We kill and rape and worse over loaves of bread we don’t really need, cups of coffee, the big SUV we drive, the forty inch plasma in our back rooms and the computers we enjoy. End of the day if you put your mind to it, certainly as an adult if not as a child, you could be saving a lot of lives and not just from death. All this morality crap people come out with seems somehow frail and hypocritical when they’re standing on a street running with the blood we’ve spilled and all the while protesting to believe in the value of life and freedom to help themselves believe it’s not there.

keep in mind our society doesn't exactly promote that, so I blame our leaders, because our society basically dictates what we do day to day. Sure we could go out and help them, but how would that benefit those rich pigs who pull the strings?




RadioactiveLobster Forum Admin

Jeff is a mean boss

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28th July 2002

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#7 10 years ago

If you try to kill me, I WILL kill you back if at all possible


If there is no image, Mikey broke something...



Nemmerle Forum Mod

Voice of joy and sunshine

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#8 10 years ago
themanclaw;4297845keep in mind our society doesn't exactly promote that, so I blame our leaders, because our society basically dictates what we do day to day. Sure we could go out and help them, but how would that benefit those rich pigs who pull the strings?

Your leaders are just as much a victim of society as you are, they're a focal point for a lot of different forces true, but they don't get to touch the social levers anymore than anyone else. The decisions they make, the very paths that have led them to power are laid out for them by those around them. If you feel sore about your choices I’m afraid they don't provide absolution.




themanclaw

Self-Righteous Bullshit

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25th September 2006

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#9 10 years ago

I'm not blaming them for my choices, its just that, if they did call of more people to help those in need, it could get in the media, which is where most people get their 'how to live life' and once that happened, it would catch on and the amount of aid would be increased exponentially.




masked_marsoe VIP Member

Heaven's gonna burn your eyes

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16th April 2005

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#10 10 years ago
tyrannicidaThe goal of self defence should be to fend of an immediate attack and to stop the opponent from carrying out further attacks.

Exactly.

Gandhian pacifism is counter-productive, and dangerous. Jesus's pacifism is open to interpretation - though it is a matter between non-resistance, and patient self-defence, not between violence and non-violence.