Secularism 30 replies

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Crusader

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18th March 2008

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#1 9 years ago

I have finally realised, that the political system most intune with real Christianity is actually secularism! Where faith in the Christ is not intwined with a nations politics, but where people are free to believe if they accept the Christ through free will. The EU elections made me think of this, when i saw the political broadcast for the "Christian Party" and I thought, would it be right to have Christian "rulers" ( I know in reality the chance of them being voted in power is unlikely) While Christian values should be built up, to do it as an official government act, is not in accordance with faith. For years i have made the Mistake of seeing secularism as an enemy of my faith, when infact it liberates it. Also it does the oppasite, true secularism, keeps the government out of controlling Church and faith affairs!




Gamov

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13th May 2009

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#2 9 years ago

Never Surrender;4920901The EU elections made me think of this, when i saw the political broadcast for the "Christian Party" and I thought, would it be right to have Christian "rulers" ( I know in reality the chance of them being voted in power is unlikely)[/QUOTE]

If one is speaking of electing a leader who is part of the Christian faith, there is no problem with that. Elect a Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, who cares. So long as they do not allow their religious beliefs to skew their decisions and lead them towards passing legislation based solely on their religious bias.

Never Surrender;4920901For years i have made the Mistake of seeing secularism as an enemy of my faith, when infact it liberates it.

Only to the degree that it keeps the two sides separate from one another so that they don't meddle in one another's affairs. It does not, by any means, though, make religion or the Church autonomous from the government or immune to its laws. Secularism calls for fairness of legislation and government based on fact and relevance instead of religious bias. [QUOTE=Never Surrender;4920901]Also it does the oppasite, true secularism, keeps the government out of controlling Church and faith affairs!

And by the same token, given the way things were run here in the US in the 8 years prior to Obama's election, Secularism would be doing the opposite. Keeping the Church out of state and federal affairs. Something I am all for.




Stryker500

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26th January 2009

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#3 9 years ago

Of course some people have turned secularism into some sort of cult. Take a look at the assholes trying to sue the president for mentioning God in his speech. Some Europeans like to claim the U.S. isn't "secular enough", but who are they to decide?

Any politician has the right to let their religious views factor into decisions, it is unavoidable. Just as their own experiences, education, and everything else factors into their decisions. They pretty much just can't try to regulate religion, ban a religion, establish a national church, etc. Yet nowhere does the Constitution prevent a the president or the people from recognizing and praising God.




Von Mudra

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#4 9 years ago
Stryker500;4921123Of course some people have turned secularism into some sort of cult. Take a look at the assholes trying to sue the president for mentioning God in his speech. Some Europeans like to claim the U.S. isn't "secular enough", but who are they to decide?

Especially considering most Euro states still require tax to be paid to church, and to take religious courses in school, both things not occuring in the USA.




Guest

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#5 9 years ago

IN the education system the U.S. is one of the most secularized countries I've seen. A number of European states either have religious classes offered in public schools, or else fund private religious schools. Not to mention many have a state religion still. In practice it's not like it means much to say there is a state religion if there are no actual laws surrounding it, but still.




Primarch Vulkan VIP Member

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#6 9 years ago
Never Surrender;4920901The EU elections made me think of this, when i saw the political broadcast for the "Christian Party" and I thought, would it be right to have Christian "rulers".

Gods no, I wouldn't want some bible thumpers in power, I'll pass on it. Too me Faith and Politics should remain a part by 8000 km.


[color=#000000][size=2][b][i]Heralds of the coming doom, Like the cry of the Raven, we are drawn, This oath of war and vengeance, On a blade of exalted iron sworn, With blood anointed swords



Stryker500

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26th January 2009

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#7 9 years ago
Uwsar-Hat-Anupuw;4921345Gods no, I wouldn't want some bible thumpers in power, I'll pass on it. Too me Faith and Politics should remain a part by 8000 km.

I would much rather have a "Bible thumper" in power than some sort of atheist nutcase. Though I will agree that both extremes are bad, especially when such a "Bible thumper" gets Christ's messages wrong.

This concept of separation of church and state is not intended to keep one's faith/religion out of politics. Much of the reasoning behind it was to protect churches from government interference and not vice-versa. Indeed it would also prevent powers such as the Roman Catholic church from essentially ruling the country. It was not intended to mean a man could not let his religious views on abortion for example effect what his stance on the issue is.




Admiral Donutz VIP Member

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#8 9 years ago
Von Mudra;4921224Especially considering most Euro states still require tax to be paid to church,

I can't talk for the other countries but in the Netherlands the goverment doesn't financialy aid religions organisations (churches etc.).

and to take religious courses in school, both things not occuring in the USA.

The Netherlands has a lot of public schools (a very large majority). Actually we have "public schools" that do not have any religious background or other such view, and that are goverment controlled/owned.

But the largest amount (about 60% of all schools) are "special education" schools: schools which are not owned or oganized by the goverment. These may be both of "public" (no religous etc. views) and "special" (religous views etc.: roman catholic schools, protestant and various sub groups like evangelic, reformed etc., jewish, muslim and hindu schools or other "views" not based on religion.) origin.

Both of these are sponsored/financed by the goverment. They our however not goverment property, private organisations, clubs etc. lead these schools.

Some of those religous schools may have religious classes, the school I went to, a public roman catholic school did not had religous classes, except for half an hour or an hour once a week were the pastor came and told some stories from the bible. My secundairy education was a public school without any religous background. My brother went to a christian school and had a few hours of "religios classes" (again bible stuff) per week, i hated it though but it he choice the school for other factors when he had to choose a school to go to. =p

Both the public and "special" (read: private) schools receive the same amount of goverment funding.

To sumarize: - Public education: Neutral and goverment organized and financed. - Private (special) education: May be neutral, religous or have other "groud foundations/views", organized by private entities such as organisations, various religious clubs etc. and thus not goverment owned. Receive the same funding as goverment owned schools.




Mr. Matt VIP Member

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#9 9 years ago

It should be noted that religious education classes in the UK (outside of dedicated religious schools) are not aimed at indoctrinating people into any particular faith, but rather teaching pupils about the different faiths in the world. Given how many there are in the UK, how many different customs and traditions each has, and how important those faiths are to many of their followers, it would seem to be short-sighted not to teach people about them. What is school, if not preparation for life?




Gamov

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#10 9 years ago

Stryker500;4921123Any politician has the right to let their religious views factor into decisions, it is unavoidable. Just as their own experiences, education, and everything else factors into their decisions. They pretty much just can't try to regulate religion, ban a religion, establish a national church, etc. Yet nowhere does the Constitution prevent a the president or the people from recognizing and praising God.[/QUOTE]

I don't dispute that a president, or any elected official for that matter, should have a right to hold their own religious beliefs. However, on matters such as abortion, stem cell research, etc.. Religion cannot, and should not (under any circumstances), factor into the decision making process of such things. Why? Because such issues are real and have real moral/physical consequences for people. Religion is based on superstition and belief in some unseen, all knowing power. We aren't even sure if Heaven, Hell or the soul exist, they are fictitious consequences/concepts. So how can one logically apply a system with such presumed guidelines to be the model upon which the choice in such a matter should be made?

I, personally, protest the idea of religious concepts being used to decide any facet of state, local or federal legislation and/or law.

[QUOTE=Mr. Matt;4922033]It should be noted that religious education classes in the UK (outside of dedicated religious schools) are not aimed at indoctrinating people into any particular faith, but rather teaching pupils about the different faiths in the world. Given how many there are in the UK, how many different customs and traditions each has, and how important those faiths are to many of their followers, it would seem to be short-sighted not to teach people about them. What is school, if not preparation for life?

Speaking from personal experience here, some (I do not mean all, just the schools with which I have had experience) of the schools here in the US that are geared towards teaching children of religion, often times cast other religions in a poor (if not almost demonic) light. I used to be of the Wicca faith (long before I became disillusioned with religion all together), and some of the ridicule and anger I received (even if it was "cleverly" masked by the individual facing me) was simply appalling. Some people took a general interest in it and wanted to know more, even if they disagreed with me. Others could have cared less, and some told me to burn in Hell with Satan.

Again, I do not mean the extremes I have experienced are the sum of all religious beliefs across the US. But, it is disheartening to know that some schools are teaching fervent, fundamentalist rhetoric to impressionable young minds.