Suicide.... 42 replies

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NiteStryker

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24th April 2003

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#1 8 years ago

Ok I kept this out of the other thread of this topic because I felt it wasnt the place to advocate my opinion. But I am going to say it here. (And this is to all suicides)

You are a weak, selfish S.O.B. if you think that killing yourself is the answer to your problems. There is always help, there is always another sunrise, no pain is forever. Suicide is a selfish act that not only ends your life, but alters the lives of those around you, and to a great degree. There is very few circumstances where taking your life would be beneficial. In combat, to prevent something you possess from falling into enemy hands, would be an example.

Yes, it is your life and you can do with it as you wish, but I think you are a stupid coward if you kill yourself, unless you have some severe terminal medical condition that you would rather die than succumb to.




Guest

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#2 8 years ago

According to my value system, if people want to kill themselves, they have every right to do so.

In the immortal words of Oscar Wilde - "Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live." Here, I would say that includes living at all.

I don’t believe anyone can adequately feel another's grief, or accurately understands another's joy’s. We imagine that we can reach one another, relate, empathize, even sympathize, but in reality we’re only passing each other by, never really knowing anyone.




Dot Com

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#3 8 years ago
NiteStryker;5257312Yes, it is your life and you can do with it as you wish, but I think you are a stupid coward if you kill yourself

If suicide were a cowardly or easy way out of life, everybody would be doing it; there aren't a lot of brave souls out there willing to take the risk. So tell me. Which is a more cowardly act? Knowing that you despise yourself and have 24/7 anhedonia decide to take matters into your own hands or lingering on for years with misery bubbling just beneath the surface? If a movie sucks half way through, chances are it will suck the rest of the way.

Life isn't for everybody and to say that it is a cowardly act is fucking pathetic. Live with incurable depression for fifty years and tell me that suicide is the coward's way out.

P.S.-Thank you Doug Stanhope for providing 20 percent of my post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oIeLKB0wU8




Crazy Wolf VIP Member

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#4 8 years ago
NiteStryker;5257312...if you think that killing yourself is the answer to your problems.

Oh, it's an answer. It's akin to throwing a game board across the table rather than "suffer defeat", but it is still a answer. Just not a great one.

There is always help,

Really? Help from whom? Help that matters? Help that makes you want to live the next day and can give you reasons why, instead of "help" just reading off some standard card?

there is always another sunrise,

So?

no pain is forever.

The symptoms of depression and other related mental illnesses can be permanent. Their pain is forever.

Suicide is a selfish act that not only ends your life, but alters the lives of those around you, and to a great degree. There is very few circumstances where taking your life would be beneficial. In combat, to prevent something you possess from falling into enemy hands, would be an example.

This isn't done all the time, but it seems people often reach out trying to find someone they can confide in and help them, then often reverse and try cutting themselves off from people they know (especially if their outreach has failed). If they cut their ties enough, then theoretically it just makes the janitor's life shittier, leave a wad of $100s hanging out of your pocket for them. If they haven't distanced themselves enough from their friends, then they must have succumbed to their urges.

Yes, it is your life and you can do with it as you wish, but I think you are a stupid coward if you kill yourself, unless you have some severe terminal medical condition that you would rather die than succumb to.

I think suicide is usually foolish and inconsiderate, but I'm not so sure about them being a coward, at least in common American parlance.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

Voice of joy and sunshine

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26th May 2003

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#5 8 years ago

Ways of thinking can arise fairly easily that respond to normal situations with very different orders of priority; offers of entirely different rewards for a given course of action. Take people who’ve been exposed to utter balls-against-the-wall clusterfucks for example:

Now most people have a sort of safety catch; it’s bound up in their preconceptions about what the world is and how they relate to that. It shapes their actions and thoughts, the order in which they consider options. This stuff is grained into you, it forms part of an instinctive chain of responses which take time to work your way through. Don’t believe me?

Chocolate or vanilla icecream?

I prefer chocolate myself.

But was the first answer you considered to murder the asker?

And so you need a certain set of emotional conditions to be in place before you can produce certain actions. Which is a fine way to live within a certain spectrum of society – but what happens when you end up outside it?

Then if you’re lucky, or perhaps unlucky, you’ll get the right set of conditions to take that safety catch off. The fault in the analogy is that, as with most parts of you, it’s alive, (“Muhaha ‘It’s alive!”,’) once it’s off you can’t just put it back on. Afterwards you have to be around civilians. Oh and you can’t put the gun down either.

To a certain extent Nietzsche may have been expressing this idea of changing responses, of aspects of the self hunting the more dominant personality patterns, when he wrote, ‘He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.’

In moments of extreme violence you shatter your self-image, cast aside those restraining relationships and meanings, so as to reach into the resultant abyss and use the more goal-focused part of yourself. What happens if you look down into the abyss and you don’t like what looks back at you? Too late to ask it to stay there. It’s coming up, and if anything’s at ground zero it’s getting trashed.

I’m not saying that’s the only way you can get different patterns of thinking – some are the result of systematic abuse, others the result of chemical imbalances that were present during the person’s behavioural conditioning – there are a great number of reasons, the exact interactions of which would take more than a single lifetime to study. But one of the ways it can manifest is in suicidal tendencies. Those sorts of thinking patterns taint everything you do and everyone you know; strip situations of their joy and interest. There are assorted anchors to this world of course; people, philosophies, activities; but they're temporary at best – the longer you try to hold on to one the more difficult it is as compared against these other priorities, the less meaningful.

You can push it back down inside for years, try and forget about it, but you can only keep it there by force so long. Eventually it climbs back out, when you’re tired and your control is slipping. Eventually the offers start to sound not so bad, good even, because in the moments when you’re going along with those new priorities you’re not applying the old values and the relationships they have stripped of their former joy cease to matter, cease to be simulations. Though I suspect for everyone the offers must be slightly different.

It's not solely about where you are, what the situation is; it’s also very much about who you are – what meaning you apply to those situations. Most people never have to look at who they are, not really – they look at others instead and reflect back at themselves a pleasing enough image in the estimation of those others. But each person who does look at himself has a fight to wage for the rest of his life between what he thought he was, what he’d like to be, and what he actually is. Some people lose that fight, some lose more or less quickly than others – but I think it’s unfair to suggest they’re cowards or that they didn’t fight it. Maybe their demon was too big to fight, maybe they weren’t strong enough to win, maybe we’re all potential suicides and just don’t live long enough. None of those options necessarily make them cowards.

That’s one viewpoint anyway. =p




emonkies

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17th July 2003

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#6 8 years ago

I have known people who committed suicide.

You have to realize just how depressed and down and out a person feels inside that tehy get to a point that they cant stand being alive another minute.

A friend I went to High School with loved the USMC and could not wait to get in. He did and was performing outstandingly. Then he started having blackouts and Medical tests could not find a answer so my friend received a medical discharge from the USMC which emotionally devastated him.

He came home and began selling AmWay products, did excellent there, became a top seller in the region, met a girl and was engaged to be married.

And then one day in winter he pulled up in front of a Adult bookstore, went in for a bit, came out, got in his car, grabbed a hunting rifle from the back seat and lodged the butt into the glovebox and proceeded to shoot himself through the heart.

His body was in the car for three days slumped forward in the seat before someone thought it was odd that that same car was still sitting there.

His fiancee was crushed and for as long as I kept in touch with her she believed he had been murdered, Police said it was definitely suicide.

People just get to a point where at that point and time they dont think they can stand it anymore and then its tick they are thinking about it and tock they do it. In a blink they try to take their own lives.

I dont think they are cowards, they are just people who are unable to see out of or break out of the darkness around themselves. They feel they have no one to talk to and no where to turn. Later things may look better but at that time its all they can see.




dinosaurJR

...

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#7 8 years ago
Spoiler: Show

Nemmerle;5257430Ways of thinking can arise fairly easily that respond to normal situations with very different orders of priority; offers of entirely different rewards for a given course of action. Take people who’ve been exposed to utter balls-against-the-wall clusterfucks for example:

Now most people have a sort of safety catch; it’s bound up in their preconceptions about what the world is and how they relate to that. It shapes their actions and thoughts, the order in which they consider options. This stuff is grained into you, it forms part of an instinctive chain of responses which take time to work your way through. Don’t believe me?

Chocolate or vanilla icecream?

I prefer chocolate myself.

But was the first answer you considered to murder the asker?

And so you need a certain set of emotional conditions to be in place before you can produce certain actions. Which is a fine way to live within a certain spectrum of society – but what happens when you end up outside it?

Then if you’re lucky, or perhaps unlucky, you’ll get the right set of conditions to take that safety catch off. The fault in the analogy is that, as with most parts of you, it’s alive, (“Muhaha ‘It’s alive!”,’) once it’s off you can’t just put it back on. Afterwards you have to be around civilians. Oh and you can’t put the gun down either.

To a certain extent Nietzsche may have been expressing this idea of changing responses, of aspects of the self hunting the more dominant personality patterns, when he wrote, ‘He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.’

In moments of extreme violence you shatter your self-image, cast aside those restraining relationships and meanings, so as to reach into the resultant abyss and use the more goal-focused part of yourself. What happens if you look down into the abyss and you don’t like what looks back at you? Too late to ask it to stay there. It’s coming up, and if anything’s at ground zero it’s getting trashed.

I’m not saying that’s the only way you can get different patterns of thinking – some are the result of systematic abuse, others the result of chemical imbalances that were present during the person’s behavioural conditioning – there are a great number of reasons, the exact interactions of which would take more than a single lifetime to study. But one of the ways it can manifest is in suicidal tendencies. Those sorts of thinking patterns taint everything you do and everyone you know; strip situations of their joy and interest. There are assorted anchors to this world of course; people, philosophies, activities; but they're temporary at best – the longer you try to hold on to one the more difficult it is as compared against these other priorities, the less meaningful.

You can push it back down inside for years, try and forget about it, but you can only keep it there by force so long. Eventually it climbs back out, when you’re tired and your control is slipping. Eventually the offers start to sound not so bad, good even, because in the moments when you’re going along with those new priorities you’re not applying the old values and the relationships they have stripped of their former joy cease to matter, cease to be simulations. Though I suspect for everyone the offers must be slightly different.

It's not solely about where you are, what the situation is; it’s also very much about who you are – what meaning you apply to those situations. Most people never have to look at who they are, not really – they look at others instead and reflect back at themselves a pleasing enough image in the estimation of those others. But each person who does look at himself has a fight to wage for the rest of his life between what he thought he was, what he’d like to be, and what he actually is. Some people lose that fight, some lose more or less quickly than others – but I think it’s unfair to suggest they’re cowards or that they didn’t fight it. Maybe their demon was too big to fight, maybe they weren’t strong enough to win, maybe we’re all potential suicides and just don’t live long enough. None of those options necessarily make them cowards.

That’s one viewpoint anyway. =p

Nemmerle, how do you do it?!? You can take the English language and make it so completely foreign to me as Klingonese is to a scalded beaver...

Although I agree - the human mind is a fragile piece of equipment. Sometimes things happen and it gets so broken that it seems like it cant be fixed. Some people survive it, others cry out for help, still others decide it is easier to give up and die.

I do agree with Nites comment that suicide ends the life of one, but irreversibly alters the lives of everyone else who knew that one. I find that in itself selfish. But then again you could argue that it is selfish of the loved ones of the suicidally depressed that they want them to live, so utterly depressed that they would rather be dead...

I smell a conundrum...

Is it braver to live on, hating every minute of it, or to check out early...? Having never been in that position, I really don't know... Plus, the answer really depends on the person.




Schofield VIP Member

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#8 8 years ago

I agree to a degree. There are people who think over think depressing that have happened to them. Then there are people who have their families murdered in front of them, but they manage to "keep it together" because they want vengeance, after vengeance has been done, they remain scarred for life. So when people say "my life sucks," but can't really give a half decent explanation to why, well shame on you.




Silberio VIP Member

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#9 8 years ago

I've never liked to take a side, but instead, I think it's good to take from everything and make something out of it.

It's true, there's a sunrise, but it depends on how you see that sun risin' on the morning; something more difficult to understand, is that someone who has depression or is suicidal has a real hard time dealing with his own mind, feelings and thoughts.

It's, there is help, many times it's right in front of the person, but this "problem" put's up a wall in front of you, and you can't hear, see, feel... ya'll never know that the help is there.

Suicide is not just a decision made by the person, it has alot to do with something else that sometimes feels even impossible to control; I don't like to critisize, but it's hard to understand something like this when you dont have felt it on your own soul, your mind, your bones.

NiteStryker, I like you, 'yer' a really good, nice fella; I don't know you, I don't if you've ever passed through the same as me, and many other youth's (Some of those, have passed the line "on their own will"), if you haven't, I hope ya never get the "chance" to feel it; And if you got outta it, lord bless you.

But the thing is, suicide has much more faces, let me quote the following:

I guess I’ve lived too fast, like there’s nothing else to do; That’s what I feel. Imagine an artist, who is unknown to everyone, he finishes a real good painting, full of colors, tears and feelings. Well, he just lays back on his chair and watches it, his finished painting. Now, think like me: The painting is my life and I am the artist, you get me? I just need to learn how to lay back on that chair, and watch what I’ve done, watch it with pleasure instead of regreting it.

More than a way to get out, it's a way to end a story. Dont know if you get me.

It's hard to deal with something like that; But it's harder to try to help someone with this problem.

As I told before, it's a wall in front, You're blind; Something keeps telling you that you ain't worth anymore, or that everything is done; I spend at least 3 hours a-day regretting on many things, Thing's that may seem to have solution for many, but when you get the blues that hard, you don't see things the same way. Sometimes, people just learn to live with the blues (That's what I call depression, to avoid confusion), it's hard, it hurts too; I consider unfortunate to live with it, but that's the way it is. Even if the Lord helps alot, this thing will allways remain there, deep down the heart, down the bones.

To finish, It's hard to help someone with this problem... Sometimes you just have to, like the song says, let it be.

God bless you all, respect.


qjyUJrq.png



Tanith

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#10 8 years ago

NiteStryker;5257312no pain is forever.[/QUOTE]

True for some physical issues but not for mental problems. From a personal perspective try living with Depersonalization Disorder for a couple of years.

[QUOTE=NiteStryker;5257312]I think you are a stupid coward if you kill yourself

If I wasn't a coward I seriously wouldn't be here today. Good old fashion fear of death & the unknown keeps a lot of people from committing the act, In my opinion it takes a lot of guts to face that.

I don't fully agree with suicide though, to me it is a last resort but only if you exhaust every other option.