The American Revolution 7 replies

Please wait...

Andron Taps Forum Mod

Faktrl is Best Pony

261,593 XP

10th September 2007

4 Uploads

21,746 Posts

1,754 Threads

#1 2 years ago

I've been here for almost a week now and have been soaking up all the re-enactment info and even after my 20th time of visiting the place, I can't help but wonder what you Brits and Europeans think of it all.  On the one hand, you can say yeah you should have the freedoms outlined by the constitution of the United States, freedom of religion or not, freedom to redress of grievances, freedom of speech, and etc.  But you can't help but wonder with everything that's happened how necessary it all was, and given enough time would the same end have come about without a rebellion.


"I'd shush her zephyr." ~ Zephyr.



Lindale Forum Mod

Mister Angry Rules Guy

241,128 XP

1st February 2010

0 Uploads

23,429 Posts

2 Threads

#2 2 years ago

Contrary to what your local politicians say, you have no rights. They are privileges.

Rights are something to which you art entitled by birth. These cannot be removed. No matter who comes into office, no matter who is crowned King, they cannot remove these rights.

Privileges are something that is earned, and they are easily taken away. All you need is one politician reforming something, or making a new law, and that privilege goes away.

For example, look at the most popular point to debate. By far, that most popular debating point is guns. Should you be allowed to carry a gun, just because you are an American, dammit? Theoretically, you need to pass a special safety class to earn the privilege of owning a gun at all. Felons no longer have the privilege of owning a gun. And the internet is having a barney about if sex offenders should be allowed to have guns. And the way America is going, they are quickly proving that America is not mature enough to own guns. So, owning a gun is a privilege, and one that you can quickly un-earn. All you need is Congress going one way or another.


filesnation_by_lindale_ff-da1kplo.png



Mr. Matt VIP Member

#BanRadioActiveLobster

356,406 XP

17th June 2002

7 Uploads

33,654 Posts

779 Threads

#3 2 years ago
Adrian Ţepeş I've been here for almost a week now and have been soaking up all the re-enactment info and even after my 20th time of visiting the place, I can't help but wonder what you Brits and Europeans think of it all. On the one hand, you can say yeah you should have the freedoms outlined by the constitution of the United States, freedom of religion or not, freedom to redress of grievances, freedom of speech, and etc. But you can't help but wonder with everything that's happened how necessary it all was, and given enough time would the same end have come about without a rebellion.

What Americans call the American Revolution, we call the Anglo-French New World Colonies Conflict. 

While Americans describe their heroic struggle against a vastly superior foe, David versus Goliath style, we remember the clash of empires with some revolutionaries in the middle.

American history records that their ancestors moved to the New World to escape religious persecution, but we remember the puritans who moved there specifically to zealously oppress people with their own absurdly harsh beliefs, and wipe our brows with relief that they left when they did.

'No taxation without representation!' cried the Americans, while they oppressed the political voice of the vast majority of their people until surprisingly recently. 

And as Americans rejoice at the so-called freedom the French Empire earned for them, we laugh at how limited those freedoms actually are compared to the rest of the developed world.

But fear not America, the French can no longer meddle in our affairs - we're happy to welcome you back into Her Majesty's Britannic Empire whenever you get bored of your little nationstate endeavour!

Only joking. Well, partially. The history that Americans are taught about their nation in school is surprisingly jingoistic and lacking in in the facts department.

Edit: For some reason, proper quotation marks become invisible, so I've had to use apostrophes.




MrFancypants Forum Admin

The Bad

217,013 XP

7th December 2003

0 Uploads

20,003 Posts

6 Threads

#4 2 years ago

In my opinion there is a lot of pathos and patriotism in American descriptions of the revolution.

You could also look at it from another perspective - you have a bunch of colonists who fled their home countries mostly due to economic hardship or criminal persectuion. They arrive in the new world, stealing land from the native population and screwing them over in the typical colonial style of the 18th century. Then they get greedy and decide not to pay taxes to the governments that made the huge initial investment required to explore and colonize those coasts in the first place. Due to logistical problems in resupplying colonial armies, existing conflicts among European powers and quite a bit of luck the rebels win and promptly give their military leadership leading positions in the new government. They start up a big propaganda machine based on radical ideas originating in feudal France but decide to hold on to slavery when the European monarchies drop it because they are mostly motivated by greed. They then continue to be opportunits, using every chance to take over land from natives or European powers, including those that helped them against the Britons.

I wouldn't say that is a fair characterization either, but the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.




Andron Taps Forum Mod

Faktrl is Best Pony

261,593 XP

10th September 2007

4 Uploads

21,746 Posts

1,754 Threads

#5 2 years ago

I would love to have had you guys tag along to hear the tours :p

LindalePrivileges are something that is earned, and they are easily taken away. All you need is one politician reforming something, or making a new law, and that privilege goes away.

Yeah, I meant to clarify that I don't really believe they're rights as such but what the government is tasked to protect from other people.  But really that's the rub isn't it?  Because then the government also once said you couldn't marry someone of the same sex or you'd risk imprisonment, so not so much star-spangled awesome as we were taught :)


"I'd shush her zephyr." ~ Zephyr.



Nemmerle Forum Mod

Voice of joy and sunshine

298,365 XP

26th May 2003

0 Uploads

28,147 Posts

5 Threads

#6 2 years ago
Adrian Ţepeş I've been here for almost a week now and have been soaking up all the re-enactment info and even after my 20th time of visiting the place, I can't help but wonder what you Brits and Europeans think of it all. On the one hand, you can say yeah you should have the freedoms outlined by the constitution of the United States, freedom of religion or not, freedom to redress of grievances, freedom of speech, and etc. But you can't help but wonder with everything that's happened how necessary it all was, and given enough time would the same end have come about without a rebellion.

The same end? Fuck, I hope not.

Freedom of religion only seems to come up when you want to deny basic decency to others, America's slaves were liberated later than ours, redress of grievance existed long before you ever went over the seas (reasonable redress for grievance arguably we still both don't have), and freedom of speech zones make me somewhat sceptical of the more general claim. (I was under the impression that there was meant to be one freedom of speech zone in America, that defined by its territorial boundaries, but maybe I'm old fashioned....)

About the only claim to greater freedom you can reasonably make is that you're probably one of the freer developed nations with ready access to firearms. But then again there are all those murders...

1UqFAea.pngSo... eeeee. You can say what you like about guns, but that's still a lot of murders. I'm not sure people who murder so many people should be trusted with guns. Or, you know - sharply pointed instruments. Box-cutters. Pencils. Things like that. ;)

And that's before we start talking about certain three letter agencies that seem to be entirely beyond reasonable oversight. Or the massive miscarriages of justice that are regularly visited upon your citizens. Or the lack of any decent health service - I mean you can say you care about your fellows all you like but I notice you're not too keen to keep them alive, or even vaguely sane and healthy.

But hey, we got rid of the more extreme religious nutcases. So... kinda like the old 'have you ever leant someone a small sum of money and never seen them again?' Probably worth it.

-shrug-

I poke fun at you, in case there was a doubt.

At its inception America itself embodied, in ideology if not in fact, many noble ideals. They say that things get destroyed and recreated far more readily than they change, and in some ways the early American system was that applied to European ideas about government at the time. But it hasn't stood the test of time well.

Americans are okay, I like many of the people. America the nation I don't much care for at the moment.

Would America have ended up in the same or better a position if it had remained part of the Empire? I doubt it, in all honesty. We'd have been too powerful collectively. Stagnated even faster. There is such a thing as being too successful.




Andron Taps Forum Mod

Faktrl is Best Pony

261,593 XP

10th September 2007

4 Uploads

21,746 Posts

1,754 Threads

#7 2 years ago
NemmerleI poke fun at you, in case there was a doubt.

Oh I know, I do so myself.  But when I listen to all these earnest claims to American greatness, it just reminds me of how little people really seem to know about things like...history or...just plain whatever is going on around them.  I hear this from several levels of society.  America as a nation is a funny thing.  I mean I firmly believe the constitution lays out some pretty good ideas about what it means to be a free society and ironically, it's things like the 4th amendment that people seem to completely overlook.  A lot of the people who are for a strong military are also the ones who conveniently forget that the founding fathers OPPOSED a standing army as they thought it posed a threat to private citizens because the federal government could easily muster them to take your property and/or drag you out into the street and shoot you.  Which is pretty apt when you consider the shit that went down with Zhokar Tsarnaev, and that was just police.  

But some people you really can't seem to get your point across.  A lot of people would rather just yell and say, "NO! You're wrong, why do you hate freedom?!"  And it's at that point I take another look at my "Moving to Switzerland" fund :p


"I'd shush her zephyr." ~ Zephyr.



Zipacna

Re-heally?

50 XP

11th January 2008

0 Uploads

4,209 Posts

0 Threads

#8 2 years ago

MrFancypants In my opinion there is a lot of pathos and patriotism in American descriptions of the revolution.

You could also look at it from another perspective - you have a bunch of colonists who fled their home countries mostly due to economic hardship or criminal persectuion. They arrive in the new world, stealing land from the native population and screwing them over in the typical colonial style of the 18th century. Then they get greedy and decide not to pay taxes to the governments that made the huge initial investment required to explore and colonize those coasts in the first place. Due to logistical problems in resupplying colonial armies, existing conflicts among European powers and quite a bit of luck the rebels win and promptly give their military leadership leading positions in the new government. They start up a big propaganda machine based on radical ideas originating in feudal France but decide to hold on to slavery when the European monarchies drop it because they are mostly motivated by greed. They then continue to be opportunits, using every chance to take over land from natives or European powers, including those that helped them against the Britons.

I wouldn't say that is a fair characterization either, but the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

I would say there is a lot of nationalism in how American history is told by many Americans. In the end, "American exceptionalism" is simply a turn on the German "Sonderweg" and similar concepts; trying to convince yourself that you are special in all of human history - it is ridiculous. The American Rebellion (a revolution requires a change of elites, which simply did not happen through that event) is stylised as some sort of freedom fight of "the Americans" against "the British". Leaving aside that everyone was "the British", the amount of "Americans" in the British army outdid the size of the "Continental Army" in total. It was through brutal rape, murder and destruction inflicted by militia of both sides that the war was decided. It merely turned out that - sorry if you find this too sloppily expressed - more rampaging brutes were on the side of independence and expansion to the West.

As for the colonists "getting greedy", the thing that is seldomly remembered is that their taxes were raised closer to the levels of what people in England were paying all the time, cutting back on the privileges awarded for fortifying the strategic and economic position in the Americas. The biggest reason was the gigantic financial hole that was still left by the Seven Years War. The colonists were required to pay for the expenses of that war - i.e. the costs of the armies, militia and Indian allies that kept them as safe as possible from the Spanish colonies, New France, Louisiana, and the French Coalition including the river Iroquois, Huron, and others, at times also the Shawnee and most of the Ohio River Valley, not to mention the tribes far to the West.

As for the people who "fled" to the colonies, those who were the worst off were mostly both of our countrymen, not the British who had any say in the colonial administration (and let's face it - this was a rebellion of the aristocracy, not "the people" ). Also, the continental-Germanic colonists generally ignored the border set by the king, beyond which no settlements were allowed. The Germans in America were relatively uninvolved with this entire thing, simply because they lived too far away from the battlefields and were out of the grasp of the colonial (and then "revolutionary" ) administration.


[center]sigpic191442_14.jpg "I'm an amateur policeman and leisure time surgeon." Sounds insane? Welcome to the pain of historians and archaeolog