The Pig and the Fish with Legs 81 replies

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Chemix2

Paladin: The Holy Knight

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#1 15 years ago
KarstIf you know anything about prehistoric lifeforms you can nicely trace todays species back to blue-green algae over a complex net of development. Or perhaps you can simply look into the more recent past: During the time of the Industrial Revolution, a certain species of moth turned a darker color to match the pollution-darkened tree trunks they sat on, because if they were seen because they had a lighter color, they would be eaten by a bird. If something like that can happen within a few decades, it makes sense that single celled organism can evolve into humans over the period of a billion years. Even more recent example: viruses evolve very quickly because of there extremely high reproduction speed. This is why viral infections have to be treated differently now than they did a century ago. Because the viri evolved into a more drug-resistant strain. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming.

Your saying that because a group of dark colored moths survived and light colored moths died, we MUST have come from slime. Yeah this is really logical... Viruses and microevolution occurs because the units are actualy made to change on each and every single reproduction of itself. There is always one randomly created copy, which only survives because it's not tagged like the others by the immune system. Macroevolution, taking place even over the course of billions of years is yet to be proven because we've never seen a full complex organism over that many years in a non controled enviornment. The human body has roughly 1 trillion cells, each of them with a specific purpose and job, and you think that this "obviously" came from algae, the same green plant/bacterial build up that occurs in my fish tank from rotting waste and high nitrate levels.

Look at the human body, look at it in screwtinizing detail and see how every part functions, see how every part relies on every other part in order to work. It takes a hell of alot more than a color change to create a human or even a chimp organ systemm it would require a massive change, a change not found in nature. 1 or 2 skeletans don't prove anything, espescialy due to an enlarged brow region, which for all we know could have been caused by the person walking into a low cave wall, then getting up and hitting it again, and possibly due to a poor mental state repeating this action upon every time he/she enters the cave eventualy causing a buldge in this area. Skeletan's show different horses, shorter legs, longer legs, different numbers of toes, and what does it show? Acording to evolution horses gained 2 ribs and a 4th toe and then lost them completely in one skeletan change. No vestigial organs remaining. Ofcourse we must assume that the skeletans are not simply from seperate and now extinct breeds.

Getting back to detail, even the basic organisms, fish for example, are so amazingly complex and yet you think some shaking of goo, some lightning some fire could have made it into even a single cell organism, even a strand of genetic code? How does this chemical bonding just "occur" and under such uncontroled circumstances (try making a house of cards without touching them or moving them with yourself directly while in an earthquake, take that to the tenth of infinity and you still won't have a clue how complicated it is, thats a adlib from meet joe black by the way). Or are you supposing that there "just was" life to begin with and somehow of all the mutations that we see (3 legged dogs, frogs, 2 headed people, such and such) some became complex organisms. I think when in comparison to someone of high intelligence making us, and we were just created by random chance, I take the former rather than the latter as more logical.

None of the proof for macroevolution has ever been truly solid, it's been a bit here and a bit there and alot of assumptions based on relatively little evidence. Maybe when several thousand like skeletans are found in the same area, then the fossil record might hold some weight towards evolution.

On the other hand we have accounts of spiritual experiences on massive scales for the entire length of humanity (almost every culture has some beleif in a soul or ghosts or something of the like), but I suppose up till secularism and the enlightenment the world was just full of stupid people who all had the same mad dream. We beleive that what we see in labs is all there is because thats all we can actively control and interact with, thinks such as the spiritual are not as tangible and can't be controled, and thus goes against man's natural cynical nature, yet over half of the world screws nature and goes with the illogical thing, why? And some religons don't even have an afterlife yet they still beleive in souls, so don't give me that fear of death crap

For information on a real scientific theory backing up intelligent design, possibly even creationism, look up hyperdimensional string theory, which was not created for religous purposes but out of the beleif that the dimensions that make up reality as a whole (we see a fraction of whats really there) are what make up the very material that everything is made out of. Essentialy as long as there is a possibility (a thought can spawn a universe, everything is true then, it is only a lie to that which it is not directly relevant to, such as star wars, it's not real to us, it doesn't exist in the fraction that we get to see, but it exists in a dimension spawned by the idea of it, and there are infinite dimensions spawned by the people in that dimension), there is a dimension for everything. In atleast one dimension it's possible that it's connected to a whole nother reality, eventualy this multiversial bonding creates the very basis of the atoms that make up everything, thus creating an expanding universe dependant on thought and possibility. Say something/someone IE God, understood control of possibility, with control matter and energy could be generated into structures, even as complex as the human body. Ultimately it's probable that humanity as it is now (after the fall) is incapable of reaching a level of understanding on angelic levels (understanding of this power of possibility) much less anything higher, if it is not restricted from us alltogether. And having written this giant bit, I feel compelled for some reason to say :0wned:




czech speacial forces

I pretend I'm cooler than AzH

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3rd September 2005

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#2 15 years ago

religeon should never be mixed with education. that is why terrorists become terrorists. because they are manipulated at a young age. also people thoughts of what is agenst or for their religeon shouldnt change rules or laws. or teaching in schools.




EON_MagicMan

Lumpy

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27th September 2005

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#3 15 years ago
Chemix2Your saying that because a group of dark colored moths survived and light colored moths died, we MUST have come from slime. Yeah this is really logical... Viruses and microevolution occurs because the units are actualy made to change on each and every single reproduction of itself. There is always one randomly created copy, which only survives because it's not tagged like the others by the immune system. Macroevolution, taking place even over the course of billions of years is yet to be proven because we've never seen a full complex organism over that many years in a non controled enviornment. The human body has roughly 1 trillion cells, each of them with a specific purpose and job, and you think that this "obviously" came from algae, the same green plant/bacterial build up that occurs in my fish tank from rotting waste and high nitrate levels. Look at the human body, look at it in screwtinizing detail and see how every part functions, see how every part relies on every other part in order to work. It takes a hell of alot more than a color change to create a human or even a chimp organ systemm it would require a massive change, a change not found in nature. 1 or 2 skeletans don't prove anything, espescialy due to an enlarged brow region, which for all we know could have been caused by the person walking into a low cave wall, then getting up and hitting it again, and possibly due to a poor mental state repeating this action upon every time he/she enters the cave eventualy causing a buldge in this area. Skeletan's show different horses, shorter legs, longer legs, different numbers of toes, and what does it show? Acording to evolution horses gained 2 ribs and a 4th toe and then lost them completely in one skeletan change. No vestigial organs remaining. Ofcourse we must assume that the skeletans are not simply from seperate and now extinct breeds. Getting back to detail, even the basic organisms, fish for example, are so amazingly complex and yet you think some shaking of goo, some lightning some fire could have made it into even a single cell organism, even a strand of genetic code? How does this chemical bonding just "occur" and under such uncontroled circumstances (try making a house of cards without touching them or moving them with yourself directly while in an earthquake, take that to the tenth of infinity and you still won't have a clue how complicated it is, thats a adlib from meet joe black by the way). Or are you supposing that there "just was" life to begin with and somehow of all the mutations that we see (3 legged dogs, frogs, 2 headed people, such and such) some became complex organisms. I think when in comparison to someone of high intelligence making us, and we were just created by random chance, I take the former rather than the latter as more logical. None of the proof for macroevolution has ever been truly solid, it's been a bit here and a bit there and alot of assumptions based on relatively little evidence. Maybe when several thousand like skeletans are found in the same area, then the fossil record might hold some weight towards evolution. On the other hand we have accounts of spiritual experiences on massive scales for the entire length of humanity (almost every culture has some beleif in a soul or ghosts or something of the like), but I suppose up till secularism and the enlightenment the world was just full of stupid people who all had the same mad dream. We beleive that what we see in labs is all there is because thats all we can actively control and interact with, thinks such as the spiritual are not as tangible and can't be controled, and thus goes against man's natural cynical nature, yet over half of the world screws nature and goes with the illogical thing, why? And some religons don't even have an afterlife yet they still beleive in souls, so don't give me that fear of death crap For information on a real scientific theory backing up intelligent design, possibly even creationism, look up hyperdimensional string theory, which was not created for religous purposes but out of the beleif that the dimensions that make up reality as a whole (we see a fraction of whats really there) are what make up the very material that everything is made out of. Essentialy as long as there is a possibility (a thought can spawn a universe, everything is true then, it is only a lie to that which it is not directly relevant to, such as star wars, it's not real to us, it doesn't exist in the fraction that we get to see, but it exists in a dimension spawned by the idea of it, and there are infinite dimensions spawned by the people in that dimension), there is a dimension for everything. In atleast one dimension it's possible that it's connected to a whole nother reality, eventualy this multiversial bonding creates the very basis of the atoms that make up everything, thus creating an expanding universe dependant on thought and possibility. Say something/someone IE God, understood control of possibility, with control matter and energy could be generated into structures, even as complex as the human body. Ultimately it's probable that humanity as it is now (after the fall) is incapable of reaching a level of understanding on angelic levels (understanding of this power of possibility) much less anything higher, if it is not restricted from us alltogether. And having written this giant bit, I feel compelled for some reason to say :0wned:

Don't underestimate the mind-boggling amount of time life has been on this Earth-- roughly 3.5 billion years. I'm still not made up on how life originated-- we haven't been able to recreate that in a lab, when, if we really new how it started, we should. Hell, look at selective breeding in dogs! Obviously not natural selection, but it shows what could come of genetic changes! Sure, a moth's wings changing colors aren't much, but over the past how long that man has bred dogs, look what we've got: w81wolf.jpg From this: toypoodlepokerstand.jpggreat%20dane.jpgdalmatian_fort.jpg jack_russell_puppies.jpg1119lassie1.jpgBULLDOG.jpg Obviously it's not the first creature to crawl onto the beaches, but these dogs are the products of selective breeding throughout 2 thousand years. 3.5 Billion years is a long time. I like your philosophy, especially the bit on religion, but, I think that secularity is a product of newfound understandings. When there are some things you can't explain-- well, as a culture, you explain them with (almost unfounded) beliefs. It's not only fear of death, and the like, but an explanation for things that are hard to understand/can't be understood yet. It's been like that time and time again (i.e Heliocentrism).




Mephistopheles

IME and myself

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27th December 2004

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#4 15 years ago

You forgot this one. No, it's not a rat... ;)

uglydog.jpg




Karst

I chose an eternity of this

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6th January 2005

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#5 15 years ago

Chemix2Your saying that because a group of dark colored moths survived and light colored moths died, we MUST have come from slime. Yeah this is really logical... Viruses and microevolution occurs because the units are actualy made to change on each and every single reproduction of itself. There is always one randomly created copy, which only survives because it's not tagged like the others by the immune system. Macroevolution, taking place even over the course of billions of years is yet to be proven because we've never seen a full complex organism over that many years in a non controled enviornment. The human body has roughly 1 trillion cells, each of them with a specific purpose and job, and you think that this "obviously" came from algae, the same green plant/bacterial build up that occurs in my fish tank from rotting waste and high nitrate levels.

Look at the human body, look at it in screwtinizing detail and see how every part functions, see how every part relies on every other part in order to work. It takes a hell of alot more than a color change to create a human or even a chimp organ systemm it would require a massive change, a change not found in nature. 1 or 2 skeletans don't prove anything, espescialy due to an enlarged brow region, which for all we know could have been caused by the person walking into a low cave wall, then getting up and hitting it again, and possibly due to a poor mental state repeating this action upon every time he/she enters the cave eventualy causing a buldge in this area. Skeletan's show different horses, shorter legs, longer legs, different numbers of toes, and what does it show? Acording to evolution horses gained 2 ribs and a 4th toe and then lost them completely in one skeletan change. No vestigial organs remaining. Ofcourse we must assume that the skeletans are not simply from seperate and now extinct breeds.

Getting back to detail, even the basic organisms, fish for example, are so amazingly complex and yet you think some shaking of goo, some lightning some fire could have made it into even a single cell organism, even a strand of genetic code? How does this chemical bonding just "occur" and under such uncontroled circumstances (try making a house of cards without touching them or moving them with yourself directly while in an earthquake, take that to the tenth of infinity and you still won't have a clue how complicated it is, thats a adlib from meet joe black by the way). Or are you supposing that there "just was" life to begin with and somehow of all the mutations that we see (3 legged dogs, frogs, 2 headed people, such and such) some became complex organisms. I think when in comparison to someone of high intelligence making us, and we were just created by random chance, I take the former rather than the latter as more logical.

None of the proof for macroevolution has ever been truly solid, it's been a bit here and a bit there and alot of assumptions based on relatively little evidence. Maybe when several thousand like skeletans are found in the same area, then the fossil record might hold some weight towards evolution.

On the other hand we have accounts of spiritual experiences on massive scales for the entire length of humanity (almost every culture has some beleif in a soul or ghosts or something of the like), but I suppose up till secularism and the enlightenment the world was just full of stupid people who all had the same mad dream. We beleive that what we see in labs is all there is because thats all we can actively control and interact with, thinks such as the spiritual are not as tangible and can't be controled, and thus goes against man's natural cynical nature, yet over half of the world screws nature and goes with the illogical thing, why? And some religons don't even have an afterlife yet they still beleive in souls, so don't give me that fear of death crap

For information on a real scientific theory backing up intelligent design, possibly even creationism, look up hyperdimensional string theory, which was not created for religous purposes but out of the beleif that the dimensions that make up reality as a whole (we see a fraction of whats really there) are what make up the very material that everything is made out of. Essentialy as long as there is a possibility (a thought can spawn a universe, everything is true then, it is only a lie to that which it is not directly relevant to, such as star wars, it's not real to us, it doesn't exist in the fraction that we get to see, but it exists in a dimension spawned by the idea of it, and there are infinite dimensions spawned by the people in that dimension), there is a dimension for everything. In atleast one dimension it's possible that it's connected to a whole nother reality, eventualy this multiversial bonding creates the very basis of the atoms that make up everything, thus creating an expanding universe dependant on thought and possibility. Say something/someone IE God, understood control of possibility, with control matter and energy could be generated into structures, even as complex as the human body. Ultimately it's probable that humanity as it is now (after the fall) is incapable of reaching a level of understanding on angelic levels (understanding of this power of possibility) much less anything higher, if it is not restricted from us alltogether. And having written this giant bit, I feel compelled for some reason to say :0wned:

Like EON_Magic man said, you underestimate just how long the earth has been around. I know very well just how small the chances are for the occurence of life, and likewise i know how dramatic changes between single celled organisms and modern life are. But even if no one can comprehend the complexity of life, as you correctly said, no one can comprehend just how long 5 billion years are. Since Darwin's time, only a few centuries have passed, so obviously we couldn't observe such changes directly. As for the example with the cave man walking into the wall, that's plain stupid for several reasons. a) When you say a "few skeletons" i don't know just what you mean by few. Thousands have been found and i doubt they all did that exact thing. b) Also, not even a very simple animal is stupid enough to hurt themselves in the same place over and over again. Maybe a fly, but definetly not a mammal.

Also, you act as though i'm saying only humans evolved. Look at the evolution of horses for example. Plenty of skeletons have been found that show horses used to have 5 toes and fingers much like most other animals but lost all but one over the course of millions of years, which is once again a period of time longer than anyone could possibly imagine. Look at a fossil archeopteryx, which has traits of reptiles and birds. As i said, if you actually knew anything about prehistoric life you'd realize there's really nothing to debate.

And oh my, it's Sam the ugliest dog in the world. In his case though i believe it's because he had some kind of nasty disease.




Chemix2

Paladin: The Holy Knight

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#6 15 years ago

A person with memory loss, or mental retardation repeatedly forgets to duck when entering a cave (as to hurting one's self). The creation of those dog breeds over the past few thousand years has come from not just the wolf, but the other original canine, and was bred by man for specific purposes. You could call this evolution, but towards what end, most house dogs would be torn to shreds by a wolf, hell even the working dogs couldn't take on a wolf (except for a few families such as border collies, which are essentialy smaller smarter less agressive wolves with a different coloration) It's not bettering a species but dividing into weaker more appealing species. Evolution is technicaly change for the better (through natural selection), this doesn't exactly better the wolves now does it. However wolves in those thousands of years haven't exactly changed, white coats versus dark coats isn't an evolutionary leap in my eyes, it goes along the same lines as the different "races" of humanity, which microevolved to fit their enviornment.

Where are these thousands of skeletans with a doubled up brow region? I've only heard of a few scattered skeletans and assumptions made on them, some of which only consisted of a couple of broken skull bones, others of a collection of teeth, not to mention those over eager frauds who have produced skeletans based on the remains of a human's jaw, a gorilla's rear skull area, a chimp's face region and a orangatan's mid head section, all of ages that would make the skull plates match up if broken properly.

While you beleive I am underestimating the time the earth has been around (which I disagree with being a creationist) you understimate the complexity of the human body, and furthermore the human mind. Now take a look at an ape, now at a supermodel, now note on just how different these organisms are, and yet the supermodel is a supposed mutation of the ape, and the ape is a mutation of a bacterial slime.

The human body in it's complexity is very feeble and weak when without it's immune system, it's like the ifle tower made of toothpicks, pull one out and it all falls apart, the immune system acts like the clue keeping each and every toothpick in place and keeping it from being taken away. Darwin despite being known as the father of evolution, actualy based his accounts on geologists and ancient greek philosophers aswell as observation on several climate variable islands on each of which were the same organisms but different to fit their enviornment, such is microevolution. Nothing on any of the islands was all that different than the rest, the birds he found had different beaks, but all essentialy looked like the same species.

I'm saying that evolution is a possibility, one that I don't beleive it, but it's hardly the "obvious" or "only" way that the world could come to be in the state it is in. It is not proven, and until we can see a complex organism species change into another, it will not be. The Hyperdimension String Theory also has backing, in fluid space/time theory (tested in Artificial gravity labs, creating minature black holes (nothing we would think of when we hear the word, it just means single point gravity, it'd give you a weird feeling near it little more) ) which is further supported by time dialiation which can be made to make sense with fluid experiment models. It has validation as a plausible theory, atleast as much as evolution if not more (10,000 years of human history and we just label anything we don't see today as myth or legend)




Karst

I chose an eternity of this

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6th January 2005

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#7 15 years ago

Chemix2A person with memory loss, or mental retardation repeatedly forgets to duck when entering a cave (as to hurting one's self). The creation of those dog breeds over the past few thousand years has come from not just the wolf, but the other original canine, and was bred by man for specific purposes. You could call this evolution, but towards what end, most house dogs would be torn to shreds by a wolf, hell even the working dogs couldn't take on a wolf (except for a few families such as border collies, which are essentialy smaller smarter less agressive wolves with a different coloration) It's not bettering a species but dividing into weaker more appealing species. Evolution is technicaly change for the better (through natural selection), this doesn't exactly better the wolves now does it. However wolves in those thousands of years haven't exactly changed, white coats versus dark coats isn't an evolutionary leap in my eyes, it goes along the same lines as the different "races" of humanity, which microevolved to fit their enviornment.

Where are these thousands of skeletans with a doubled up brow region? I've only heard of a few scattered skeletans and assumptions made on them, some of which only consisted of a couple of broken skull bones, others of a collection of teeth, not to mention those over eager frauds who have produced skeletans based on the remains of a human's jaw, a gorilla's rear skull area, a chimp's face region and a orangatan's mid head section, all of ages that would make the skull plates match up if broken properly.

While you beleive I am underestimating the time the earth has been around (which I disagree with being a creationist) you understimate the complexity of the human body, and furthermore the human mind. Now take a look at an ape, now at a supermodel, now note on just how different these organisms are, and yet the supermodel is a supposed mutation of the ape, and the ape is a mutation of a bacterial slime.

The human body in it's complexity is very feeble and weak when without it's immune system, it's like the ifle tower made of toothpicks, pull one out and it all falls apart, the immune system acts like the clue keeping each and every toothpick in place and keeping it from being taken away. Darwin despite being known as the father of evolution, actualy based his accounts on geologists and ancient greek philosophers aswell as observation on several climate variable islands on each of which were the same organisms but different to fit their enviornment, such is microevolution. Nothing on any of the islands was all that different than the rest, the birds he found had different beaks, but all essentialy looked like the same species.

I'm saying that evolution is a possibility, one that I don't beleive it, but it's hardly the "obvious" or "only" way that the world could come to be in the state it is in. It is not proven, and until we can see a complex organism species change into another, it will not be. The Hyperdimension String Theory also has backing, in fluid space/time theory (tested in Artificial gravity labs, creating minature black holes (nothing we would think of when we hear the word, it just means single point gravity, it'd give you a weird feeling near it little more) ) which is further supported by time dialiation which can be made to make sense with fluid experiment models. It has validation as a plausible theory, atleast as much as evolution if not more (10,000 years of human history and we just label anything we don't see today as myth or legend)

First, the dogs and wolves. Obviously a house dog is not likely to win a fight against a wolf because wolves have to have survival skills in the wild while house dogs are bred by humans to look nice. This is not natural but artificial selection, i don't really see what you're trying to say with that example. A mentally ill person may "forget" to duck when entering a cave but not any sane person or animal. Primitive humans did not suffer from mental retardation or memory loss more than modern humans do today. Also, there are way too many skeletons for that to be the case even if a single found specimen was mentally ill, which is unlikely anyway. If you think only a few were found you obviously don't know a lot about archeology. Also, you say the wolf hardly changed over "those thousands of years". I agree that it hasn't, however we're talking about hundreds of millions of years, not merely thousands, and the wolf has indeed changed dramatically over these millions of years, along with almost every other species. (a few notable exception exist that have hardly changed, such as sharks) But when you look at any mammal, bird or most other species you will notice they have changed a lot, as i mentioned in my earlier posts. Your post is plenty long but that doesn't mean it has anymore validity. You can't tell me i'm wrong but not really counter my arguments :uhm:




Cap'n Rommel

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#8 15 years ago

These things makes me heart bleed.

Relegion shouldnt prevent knowlege




Karst

I chose an eternity of this

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#9 15 years ago

Irwin RommelThese things makes me heart bleed.

Relegion shouldnt prevent knowlege

Discussions about this should've ended centuries ago, it's just gotten more and more obvious. Considering this is still discussed, i'm suprised people no longer doubt the earth is round.




Cap'n Rommel

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#10 15 years ago
Discussions about this should've ended centuries ago, it's just gotten more and more obvious. Considering this is still discussed, i'm suprised people no longer doubt the earth is round.

you are right...sadly