Trade People 10 replies

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SeinfeldisKindaOk

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#1 8 years ago

Countries trade all sorts of stuff: rice, wood, cars. Why not trade people as well?

The US clearly has a deficit of people willing to do crappy jobs, that's why there's such a large market for illegal aliens to fill those positions. It also has a surplus of "educated" people, i.e. college graduates that can't find a job that uses their brain. This is due to there being way more candidates than jobs.

However, in many of the countries where illegal immigrants come from, a person with a high school diploma is still relatively rare, much less a college degree.

The US should ship some of its lesser quality college graduates to other countries to make room for workers to fill the depleted labor economy. This would help the US's economy.

Not only would it make dollars, it would also make sense.




Mr. Pedantic

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#2 8 years ago

What if these people don't want to leave? And what if other countries aren't willing to have them? Who would pay for them to move?

Also, many of the countries that would be good to ship people off to(from the way the post is written I get the impression Mexico seems a prime target) how many would have the infrastructure to have those people do things they are qualified for? For example, what's the point of shipping theoretical physicists off to Ethiopia if they can't afford to give them grant money for research? Or have no equipment to perform experiments with? Or have no internet to collaborate with other scientists? Or, why send engineers to, say, Haiti if the country is too poor to commission buildings/bridges/products that require engineering expertise?

In any case, if you think the US has a surplus of overeducated people, look at China: 6 million university graduates a year, many of whom would work much harder, and for much less money, than comparably qualified American graduates.




SeinfeldisKindaOk

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#3 8 years ago

You make it sound like a country needs to have infrastructure to build infrastructure. The fact that you didn't consider how silly an idea that is just goes to show that you're a prime candidate for trade. That's probably why you seem resistant to the idea. Besides, most countries have a considerable amount of infrastructure. With qualified individuals they could grow it faster. Also, who's to say people will be only building things? There's plenty of white collar jobs to be filled as well, like office automatons for example. Or middling doctors.

So what if people don't want to move? They should stop being so selfish. Haven't you ever heard the quote "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"?

Obviously, people would only be shipped to countries that have a demand. Why would anyone trade to a place that doesn't want what you're trading? I thought that went without saying.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

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#4 8 years ago

Why would you help another country build infrastructure they're going to use to compete with you?




SeinfeldisKindaOk

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#5 8 years ago

Why would you trade steel to another country if they're just going to use it to build infrastructure to use to compete with you? Why would you trade rice or other consumables to another country if they're just going to use it to feed people who will compete with you? Why would you trade anything to another country if it's just going to help them compete with you?

Because it's beneficial to you as well. In fact the benefit you get from the trade is greater than if you had not traded. It's the basis on which all trading lies on.

You wouldn't be helping them build infrastructure per se. You'd simply be trading them surplus people they have a demand for.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

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#6 8 years ago

Professor Dr. Scientist;5400092Why would you trade steel to another country if they're just going to use it to build infrastructure to use to compete with you? Why would you trade rice or other consumables to another country if they're just going to use it to feed people who will compete with you? Why would you trade anything to another country if it's just going to help them compete with you?

Because it's beneficial to you as well. In fact the benefit you get from the trade is greater than if you had not traded. It's the basis on which all trading lies on. [/QUOTE]

Not everything you trade helps others compete with you. One of the reasons to give people food, even for free, is that it inflates their population artificially until it's larger than a developing agriculture could support, so they can't compete with you. Similarly if you get their infrastructure dependent on a resource you have in abundance but they are unlikely to acquire, or you sell them a refined good at a low cost so that industries they're developing in their own country can't compete you; scupper their development....

Trade is rarely good for both parties unless you consider their economic outputs as a group, which simply isn't how companies set up to concentrate wealth work.

So how is this trade better for us? What dependencies does it set up? Education is relatively easy to replicate, infrastructure allows people to develop independence. We get immigrants regardless of whether they get graduates.

[QUOTE=Professor Dr. Scientist;5400092]You wouldn't be helping them build infrastructure per se. You'd simply be trading them surplus people they have a demand for.

Semantics.




Nittany Tiger Forum Mod

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#7 8 years ago

Why don't we just stop outsourcing jobs? That way, Americans can do American jobs.

In a sense, we're trading jobs with people in other countries.

Some people would be willing to do any job now, but with companies trying to save every cent they can, they give it to foreigners.

I mean, Americans versed in computer technology that they earned from an institution would be better suited for a technical assistant job for customer service than an Indian person reading from a cue card.

Don't trade people to give them jobs overseas. Stop trading jobs to people overseas.




SeinfeldisKindaOk

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#8 8 years ago
Nemmerle;5400099Nemmerle's Post

You're kind of paranoid, aren't you? Not everything is done to secretly sabotage others. Trade happens because it's beneficial to both parties. Many developed countries have a surplus of people. Is it really that difficult to figure out selling some of the surplus you have no use for is beneficial to you?

You realize you say that infrastructure keeps people dependent on you and then later say that it allows them to be independent?

Semantics.

:uhoh: There's a difference. A country that sells steel doesn't tell the buyer what to build. Same with people traded. When a Mexican comes to the US he finds what work is available. The same would be true for any person traded to another country.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

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#9 8 years ago

Professor Dr. Scientist;5400109You're kind of paranoid, aren't you? Not everything is done to secretly sabotage others. Trade happens because it's beneficial to both parties. [/QUOTE]

Kind of like heroin addicts and their dealers.

Professor Dr. Scientist;5400109Many developed countries have a surplus of people. Is it really that difficult to figure out selling some of the surplus you have no use for is beneficial to you?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't sell spare explosives to terrorists. You're trying to paint this in terms of mutual benefit when the playing field is slanted massively in the long term interests one party. Benefit and value are not the same things. Both parties trade because they get something they value out of it - even if just the putting off of some evil - but often what one party values does not benefit it, especially in the long term.

[QUOTE=Professor Dr. Scientist;5400109]You realize you say that infrastructure keeps people dependent on you and then later say that it allows them to be independent?

No, I'm fairly sure I didn't. I said trading people certain types of goods and services keeps them dependent on you by dictating the shape their infrastructure takes on. [QUOTE=Professor Dr. Scientist;5400109]:uhoh: There's a difference. A country that sells steel doesn't tell the buyer what to build. Same with people traded. When a Mexican comes to the US he finds what work is available. The same would be true for any person traded to another country.

He did it! But he wouldn't be there if you didn't send him and you were perfectly aware of the cultural forces that were in play that would dictate the likely course of his 'decision'! But he did it! But....

Repeat until bored.




SeinfeldisKindaOk

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#10 8 years ago
Nemmerle;5400120Kind of like heroin addicts and their dealers.

More like trading. Or exactly like that.

You're trying to paint this in terms of mutual benefit when the playing field is slanted massively in the long term interests one party. Benefit and value are not the same things. Both parties trade because they get something they value out of it - even if just the putting off of some evil - but often what one party values does not benefit it, especially in the long term.

And you're getting on my case about semantics? Nobody can tell the future. In trade it's fair to assume value and benefit mean the same thing to the people trading. Why would someone trade for something that didn't benefit them? Also, please leave the Machiavellian stuff out. This isn't about your distrust of all corporations and governments (even though they are out to get you, specifically). It's about the benefit of trading people between countries.

I said trading people certain types of goods and services keeps them dependent on you by dictating the shape their infrastructure takes on.

What's your definition of infrastructure?

He did it! But he wouldn't be there if you didn't send him and you were perfectly aware of the cultural forces that were in play that would dictate the likely course of his 'decision'! But he did it! But....

Are you suggesting that governments have the ability to completely predict what a person will do when traded?

Repeat until bored.

k




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