Wikileaks: Israel kept Palestinian economy at brink of collapse to discredit Hamas 21 replies

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Joe Bonham

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10th December 2005

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#11 8 years ago
Keyser_Soze;5453242because there's nothing they could do? half the Arab countries out there have been pressuring Israel to loosen its blockade on the Gaza strip. Here's why they let it happen: ISRAEL'S DON'T LISTEN TO ANYBODY. They do what they want and don't give a shit about the long-term humanitarian consequences. Multiple countries have been involved with diplomacy over Gaza. Israel didn't listen. The fault doesn't lie with them. They were powerless to do anything due to a combination of economic entanglement (military action would have severe economic consequences for Arab oil nations) and a lack of willingness to go to war.

The Israelis even turned down a shit-ton of American money and a fistful of brand new F-35s to delay building the wall. Not even to STOP building the wall. Just delay its construction for a year. They refused. This isn't about humanity, economic interests, or even common sense. This is about ideology. Ideology and religious fanaticism made Israel possible, and helped Israel defeat superior numbers in war. But in the end, it will be ideology that destroys Israel. From dust to dust.




Red_Fist

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28th April 2010

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#12 8 years ago

After all these years I find it hard to blame Israel, if they still shot rockets at Israel, it could have been from some nice new high-rise buildings, not the slums, all slums.

They want to stay poor, slums, no fault to anyone but themselves. If they built that place up, they could still hate Israel just as much.




Keyser_Soze

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3rd May 2009

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#13 8 years ago

Red_Fist;5453882After all these years I find it hard to blame Israel, if they still shot rockets at Israel, it could have been from some nice new high-rise buildings, not the slums, all slums.

They want to stay poor, slums, no fault to anyone but themselves. If they built that place up, they could still hate Israel just as much.

why are they shooting rockets at Israel? there's a Jihad element to it, but why did Hamas have the support to get into power? They were sick of oppression.

While I don't agree with Hamas's methods, I certainly understand why they were voted into power. While i oppose Hamas's methods, Israel has no interest in making any settlement whatsoever. while i support Fatah's efforts, they are not getting anywhere and won't. In that, it becomes evident why Hamas got into a position of power which allowed them to do this. People wanted a change, and saw this as the most effective way, and to be honest, it has been! Hamas has almost single-handedly managed to shift world opinion on Israel and loosen the blockade on Gaza. It's not much to their ultimate goal, but you can't deny Hamas's actions have been effective, more effective than that of Fatah. That is why Hamas was elected, and that, together with the elitist, oppressive stance Israel have on people who have lived on that land for thousands of years, have led Hamas to constantly shell Israel. I don't agree with it, but the reasons why the can, and do are understandable. Of course, that's quite a mouthful for somebody who can't comprehend Socialism.

Also, they did build it up. Israel destroyed their industry and infrastructure in their invasions.

Red Fist, your attitude towards poor countries seems to be that it is their fault they are poor, and that they could be rich if they tried.

Here's why they are poor: they can't afford to develop themselves sufficiently. In the case of Gaza, they are being strangled by Israel. The fact they don't have access to construction materials kinda eliminates any hope of developing.

What i don't think you realise about economics is that there is only so much money in the world, and this is predominately controlled by the west. For a poor country to become more prosperous, chances are, the money is being lost by the west. The west's economic power makes it very difficult for this to happen. They can afford to put things at lower prices, meaning consumer markets in poor countries are dominated by the West. You can't just print off money and call yourself more prosperous. that's called hyperinflation. It might sound easy to make more money, but remember we live in the West, the land of opportunity. There's a reason people come here to drive taxis. They make more money here than they will in the developing world. This is because wages are lower, and there's not a lot of opportunity to become prosperous. it's what, 5% of the population in the west is considered rich, It's probably less than 1% in the developing world.

In the case of Gaza, while it would probably be more in the interests of the people's wellbeing for Hamas to not buy rockets, even if they didn't, there would be a humanitarian crisis going on there.




Mihail VIP Member

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19th January 2003

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#14 8 years ago

I don't think anyone is actually shocked by this, especially after the Gaza Aid flotilla raid that Israel conducted that ended in nine civilians being killed.

Vasili;5453130No problems with Israelis, just their zionist government.[/QUOTE]Agreed, been saying that since I joined these forums.

[QUOTE=Red_Fist;5453226]Wonder why those very oil poor Arabs could let it happen.

Someone is forgetting the half dozen wars, which they tried, but Israel's nuclear program has shut down any new possible attempts.




MrFancypants Forum Admin

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7th December 2003

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#15 8 years ago

Vasili;5453048http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...lapse-1.335354

Lol I knew that blockage against arms smuggling was a load of bullshit they just want to destroy Palestine economically and then absorb them.

I don't think the plan is to absorb them (in that case they could just have stayed there) but rather to try to force a regime change.

That the general idea was to motivate the Gazans to change their government was rather obvious. It wasn't even such a bad plan or unjustified. The alternative would have been to invade Gaza (doing nothing when people are shooting rockets at you is a good way to get voted out of office, so that wasn't an option). Hamas was clever enough to use the blockade against Israel though and now the PR cost for Israel is rather high while Hamas remains in power.

My guess is that Israel will switch to a passive-aggressive plan now. They'll allow more goods in and wait for the next serious terrorist attack, then they can again gather votes with a strong reaction and tell the rest of the world "see, we told you that giving them more supplies is a bad idea".




Joe Bonham

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#16 8 years ago
Red_Fist;5453882After all these years I find it hard to blame Israel, if they still shot rockets at Israel, it could have been from some nice new high-rise buildings, not the slums, all slums. They want to stay poor, slums, no fault to anyone but themselves. If they built that place up, they could still hate Israel just as much.

That's bullshit brother. If the Israelis had even the slightest interest in peace or co-existence, they wouldn't be imprisoning peaceful protesters.

West Bank protester Abdallah Abu Rahmah is facing a further three months in prison after the Israeli military court of appeal today extended his sentence. Abu Rahmah, a leader of protests against Israel's separation barrier in the village of Bil'in, was convicted in August of incitement and organising illegal demonstrations. This was criticised by Cathy Ashton, the EU foreign policy chief, who described him as a "human rights defender committed to non-violent protest against the route of the Israeli separation barrier". Archbishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa also condemned the conviction. Abu Rahmah was due to be released in November, but military prosecutors argued for him to be detained until their appeal for a longer sentence could be heard. They wanted him to serve two years "as a deterrence not only to [Abu Rahmah] himself, but also to others who may follow in his footsteps".[emphasis mine]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/view-from-jerusalem-with-harriet-sherwood/2011/jan/11/palestinian-territories-israel So in their own words, the Israelis are forcing the Palestinians to use violence to gain their freedom. Peaceful protest results in you going to jail, and/or your family being murdered by massive quantities of tear gas. EDIT: Also found this little gem:

On Wednesday, at about 7.30am, a convoy of military vehicles and bulldozers arrived to tear down 16 homes, an animal pen, a store and one of the village school's classrooms. All were subject to demolition orders, granted because the structures were built without permission, which is almost impossible for Palestinians to get around here. Dkaika is in Area C, under full Israeli military and civil control, which accounts for 60% of the West Bank. At the time there were dozens of children inside the school. The soldiers tried to prevent the its three teachers from entering the building. Sulaima Najadah, 38, who has taught English at the school since last September, told me that he sneaked in to reassure the crying children. "I was in this class," he said, pointing to the pile of twisted metal and masonry. "The soldiers took us out by force." The teachers were handcuffed and blindfolded in front of their pupils before the bulldozers moved in. One girl, Mariam Odeh, 13, said she had been afraid the classroom would be demolished over their heads.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/view-from-jerusalem-with-harriet-sherwood/2011/jan/14/palestinian-territories-israel I would be fascinated to hear an explanation for how this behavior is excusable.




Granyaski VIP Member

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#17 8 years ago
Joe Bonham;5453837The Israelis even turned down a shit-ton of American money

Thats actually a bad thing. Now they have nuclear technology they also have had the A-bomb for quite a while. Nothing as advanced as what the Western world has but it's still dangerous. One attack from the Arabic nations and Israel won't even have to rely on it's military.

The Arabas have tried many times to defeat Israel-they win everytime. Whoever said that Egypt didn't care-that isn't exactly true. They more HAVE to care. Nasser's beliefs are still floating around even today but like said before there is nothing they can do.




MrFancypants Forum Admin

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#18 8 years ago
Granyaski;5454476 Whoever said that Egypt didn't care-that isn't exactly true. They more HAVE to care. Nasser's beliefs are still floating around even today but like said before there is nothing they can do.

Egypt could help, but I don't think they want to. They don't want any militants from Gaza setting up camp in their territory and they probably dislike the idea of dealing with all the refugees that would move to Egypt if the border was opened.




Joe Bonham

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#19 8 years ago

If anything Egypt is pro-Israel. They have to be. The Egyptian "government" is little more than a puppet of the United States.




Granyaski VIP Member

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#20 8 years ago
MrFancypants;5454487Egypt could help, but I don't think they want to. They don't want any militants from Gaza setting up camp in their territory and they probably dislike the idea of dealing with all the refugees that would move to Egypt if the border was opened.

Refresh me on my history. Do Egypt still technically 'own' Gaza?

Still I guess you guys are right. Palestine and Israel have their own problems now, I don't think Egypt wants them slipping over to their border.